Shouted at during work meeting

[Gryffindor]

I have just returned to work after 8 weeks off (fell ill on holiday - very genuine, work provided with certificates, accompanying GP letters etc).

I work in a very stressful environment, think male-dominated, high-pressure, long hours etc. On my first day back I joined an audio call with 5 colleagues from across my organisation who sit in different teams. One man, who I have had some issues with in the past (he can be very intimidating, and has said work-related things that he later denies) shouted at me after about 30 seconds and said:

"Shut up Gryffindor, you are really annoying me".

Unfotunately, this is nothing unusual, but after being ill and also out of the work mentality for 2 months it has really upset me. I hadn't even said anything controversial, I had literally just started talking. Unfortunately, I work in an unpopular function which is often villified for "hindering business".

My direct boss is lovely and supportive, but despite being a huge household name organisation there is literally no support in place for people (particularly senior men) to be accountable for their actions. Far from being an isolated incident, this kind of thing happens all the time, I just feel as though my armour has been chinked and I'm struggling to move on. AIBU to be upset?

Conversely, if women behave in anything other than a demure manner we are criticised for being "agressive" and recommended to have training in influencing and communicating. Total double standards.

Sorry, this is a total rambling mess but even writing it out is helping me feel better.

[bigbrick]

Good going - keep the replies coming - you have lots to use from here

[vladthedisorganised]

Glad you had a better day, Gryffindor. The workers united shall never be defeated!

[damejudydench]

I'm glad to hear that you sound more in control, Gryffindor. FWIW, I think most of us would feel exactly how you did in that situation. I think the trick is not to let twathead know that. Over the years I've realised that you do teach people how you expect to be treated.

Stay strong!

[Echocave]

OP my guess is either JP Morgan or UBS and that you're in compliance or legal. No need to respond on that though!

Banks breed a culture of dickish behaviour. Ordinary people arrive and then often the culture makes them behave like twunts. Shouting is common partly because of the stress of the working environment.

DBIL works in such a place and from what he has told me, most approaches make no difference at all to the shouter. They just don't care and personally i wouldnt waste my energy. This is why they are generally awful places to work. I think get out OP, the market's moving a bit now. Unless your Chief Twunt gets the boot (as these places do seem to have a high staff turnover ).

[Want2bSupermum]

Im loving these replies. Almost a shame that I now work in a professional environment and don't need to use them!

hoboken are you living in Hoboken, NJ? Used to live there...

[garlicbutter]

Yee-haah! It's okay to piss your friends around on your first day of getting back on the horse, so to speak ... just don't make it a habit, OK?

[Gryffindor]

I know, Mumsnet is truly marvellous sometimes. I can only imagine the drivel NetHuns would proffer.

Got properly stuck back into work for the first time today - it felt good. Didn't encounter that prat but did encounter some of his cronies and managed to put them in their places over the nonsense they were trying to get past me.

Although I did get stuck in the office so late that I was 1.5 hours late for dinner with friends!

[Talkinpeace]

that is partly because MN is full of well qualified women who have had to deal with such issues
can you imagine how much more effective UK business would be if they hired us lot as their Non-execs

[garlicbutter]

Isn't Mumsnet great? Not one "Aw, hun, hope u feel better 2moro," but 100+ messages offering 100+ strong responses!

[Talkinpeace]

The main thing is to call them - and treat them as - "boys"
not lads, not gentlemen but boys - of the six year old variety.
All the bullying in the world diminishes one you permanently envisage them in their pre prep school uniforms.

And occasionally a stand up, knuckles on table, antler to antler, growl is needed - it seems to work for about three years at a time

[damejudydench]

I also think that another problem that arises constantly (with some of the directors I've worked with) is that they think they have asked for something when in fact they haven't. That's when the raging arsehole kicks in. They are always right, of course.

I try to pre-empt this by asking lots of questions and telling other people what they need to do and by when. Having said that, despite issuing various reminders some staff still fail to get stuff in and that's when I start to turn purple...

[damejudydench]

Brilliant advice on here, especially from stinkingbishop and vladthedisorganised.

I will be back for advice if and when I have my own ishoos.

[vladthedisorganised]

Haven't read the whole thread either, but I have worked in a lot of silverback environments with a lot of shouty dickheads too.

Being professionally brisk helped. I ended up seeing them as recaltricant two year olds and it really stood me in good stead. Every time one of them swears or shouts, imagine your DC stamping their foot because you won't give them sweets at the checkout of whatever.

"I want that presentation on my desk fucking YESTERDAY!"
"You can have the presentation on your desk now, but there won't be anything in it until we have the end-of-year returns (or whatever). I can give you something accurate tomorrow, or something inaccurate now. What do you suggest?"

"Shut up Gryffindor, you're really annoying me."
"A pity, but entirely irrelevant to our agenda. Suggest we move on to the next item, unless Mr Arsehole has anything more useful to say? We're busy people and there's a lot to get through. Next!"

[stinkingbishop]

OK...slightly different suggestion. Are you in Legal by any chance? Or similar support function?

I was never rude to our lawyers but GOD they could drive me up the wall. I was the Marketing Director and it seemed they took real relish in banning me doing any advertising at all...it was all getting very frustrating and tense.

So I did the controversial thing of having a frank and honest discussion. Trying to see their point of view, and explaining mine. One of the things that came out was that they were bonussed (money being quite a key factor when it comes to how people behave in the workplace) on receiving no complaints at all. And I was bonussed on things like cut through of the ads (ie it was in my financial interest to make them provocative). So directly opposed.

I therefore took this to the MD, asking them to change the legal bonus so it was on upheld complaints...problem solved.

When the shouty guy said you were being annoying...try to think WHY that might be. I am sure you are making perfectly valid points, but is there any way your function might be stopping him from achieving what he needs to in order to do his job properly? Is there any way of having a calm discussion with him about it?? I just wonder whether, if this is the City, he's all about sales, next year's summer holiday depends on him hitting some targets...and you (not personally, just your function) may be an obstacle in him achieving his targets. So either you need to work together, or the targets need to be changed, or...

[YouWithTheFace]

There are better banks out there! My husband has just escaped from one with similar cultural issues to yours to a much smaller one where even the back office count as people :) Don't get paralysed by the false idea that this is as good as it gets - my husband has the same salary for 75 percent of the hours and 6000 percent more respect.

[MamaBear17]

I haven't read the whole thread, but I usually find the following line works well when dealing with aggressive collegues:

Right, you obviously need some time to pull yourself together, ill come back when you've remembered how to behave like a professional.

You must then walk away and do not respond to any further insults. In your particular case, I would go in and see the person when he is on his own and simply tell him that the next time he speaks to you in such an unprofessional way you will file a complaint. Tell him you would welcome an apology but will not listen to excuses or get into an argument about it. Then walk away.

I have dealt with many an arsehole like this and always manage to keep the moral high ground and the support of my colleagues. I stay calm and strong, then go into my office and cry! Good luck x

[PastaBeeandCheese]

Funky I've used the fiddle line......

'Wait, wait.... no, I haven't got my violin with me today'.

Good luck tomorrow OP.

[TiredDog]

This thread is quite refreshing in terms of the advice on how to deal with crappy work colleagues.

I work in a female dominated industry paralysed by useless HR policies and procedures. So the logging of incidents, involvement of unions and frequent meetings to address 'unacceptable' behaviour happens (all very time consuming) but doesn't really effectively address it all.

A male manager alongside me has mastered the technique of insidious poor behaviour. All the involvement of HR in the world will not change him. Every HR meeting becomes derailed by minute examination of detail when we all know he's doing stuff. Proof and context is hard. He shouted at me sounds terribly lame and is not a career move tbh

I have developed a similar behaviour just for him (...sugar coated of course because I'm a woman and it's expected ) but it catches him off guard when he is expecting to play the HR game and he knows how to play that. I don't call HR in, I respond in kind making sure I always lovely and not helpful when doing so

[FunkyBoldRibena]

"Shut up Gryffindor, you are really annoying me".

a - 'I'm sorry, I didn't quite catch that, could you repeat it for the minutes please.

b - 'How are you spelling 'annoying' please. Thanks'.

c - 'Yes, that's my job...get over it'

d - 'And I forgot to bring my sad fiddle today, what a shame'.

e - 'Its a dirty job 'Shouty man' but someone's got to do it'.

f - 'Oh no, annoying you - oh dear! Poor thing!

g - 'Of course I'm annoying you - it's what I do.

h - 'Oh dear, shall I get you a first aider?

[Lavenderhoney]

I used to do lots of audio calls with lots of shouty people, of both sexes.

1- he/ she does the actions ( not minutes, if you were there, make your own notes) of the meeting controls the meeting. Give them some work to do. Make sure the agenda is set and no surprises.

2- when they have finished, pause a beat and say " let me finish please,"

3- tell your boss and have them come in and sit with you but not say they are there. Then they can jump in and say " its big boss, just stepped in to the call to check progress, now look here, tosser, you need to listen not shout" the shock will shut them up.

1. Have a call with their manager and tell them the problem. Also email them and say you are doing this as its unacceptable. You do it on the phone first, privately, and if they shout send an email instead.

1. Try to clear up and resolve difficult issues with the individuals before the meeting, so you can say " x is an issue and the idea is to do this, which is great" action is x, any questions?" If anyone rants, they will be in the minority, let them, then say, well the consensus is this, so if its a massive issue to you, please discuss offline with x as its been agreed we do it like this. Next item on the agenda... And don't be drawn.

If you are NOT running the meeting, complain to who is and say they need to step up as you won't be shouted at. And if it happens again, say someone else should be running the meetings. Not shouty pants though, or why have a meeting?

Good luck.

[Chottie]

OP - well done for doing so well in a male dominated atmosphere.

I have read your post with interest as yesterday I was shouted at by a man in meeting. He had a rant and then stormed out of the meeting. He is a complete waste of space. Unfortunately I have to work with him.

The HR route would not work for me either. This man is a petty, vicious individual and there is no level he would not stoop to. I just hold him in complete contempt.

I don't have a solution for you, but please do not let this man 'force' you out, you have obviously worked very hard to get where you are.

I wish I had the balls and strength to face him out. It's heartening to read how many ballsy women there are. > The trouble is he is untouchable as has the CEO in his pocket......

[hoboken]

Have a stock of one-liners for every situation and use them

'Gryffindor, you are really annoying me...'

Answers - You can get tablets/self-help books for that.

Tough! Now, lets get on with business shall we?

Oh dear, PMT again?

I am delighted to have had such an effect on you, at least we know you are awake

Really? Gosh, you mean you were actually listening? Unusual.

Is that relevant?

Pity about you. I'm here to talk about...

Sorry, did someone speak?

And yes, I do work in a male-dominated atmosphere where egos are constantly on display. I challenge with humour, I am not afraid to belittle the belittlers and always defend anyone junior. I only ever speak in that manner to people who show me disrespect.

[HeadsDownThumbsUp]

Which situation, Wally?

In the second situation I did make a formal complaint due to the completely unacceptable treatment of another staff member.

In the first situation...mention it to who, exactly? For all that's said about banking being some corporate jungle...there are at least notional complaints procedures and HR teams, there are formal and informal pathways for mentoring and support. There are many, many workers who have far less support and protection. So what's with the self-congratulatory "predator/prey" shtick?

[WallyBantersJunkBox]

But how is leaving without mentioning anything about bullying making a change to this kind of environment?

[HeadsDownThumbsUp]

I'm not sure it's directly applicable to the OP's situation.

But in one notoriously dick-swinging environment I received far, far harsher treatment than someone shouting at me to say they were annoyed. I was shouted at daily. Sworn at daily. Almost constantly belittled. And once I was bawled out because someone else caused a workplace accident which sent a load of broken glass down on my head. As you can imagine, I had absolutely no political capital in that workplace. Obviously there was no HR department, and there's no real legal protection for any staff in that sector at all. Honestly, the best I could do to "manage" that situation was to keep quiet and focus my attention on the best parts of my job instead. I saw other people manage the situation chiefly through insouciance and by building relationships with the most difficult members of staff by socialising with them out of hours. I wasn't prepared to put in that level of energy and commitment just to deal with a bunch of idiots. Ultimately, I "managed" that situation by coming to the realisation that it was an entirely disfunctional team that I had few compelling reasons to work with, and I left. That was a good outcome for me.

The other situation involved shouty, sweary managers and a level of intrusiveness and surveillance that people struggle to believe when I tell them about it. HR was based in overseas, and the only way to contact them was through a line manager. Hahaha. I raised a query once only for a senior manager to shout at me and point threateningly in my face in front of over fifty people. At that point I hardly felt the need to say anything, since their behaviour was already making them look completely ridiculous to a sizeable audience. In other situations I was never aggressive or hostile. I couldn't afford to be. I stayed calm, and was matter-of-fact about stating my point of view and why their behaviour was inappropriate, (and in some cases unlawful). I never had to apologise, but was often apologised to.

I did not go down the "grievance" route regarding anything that happened to me personally, but I did end up raising a formal complaint regarding the way another staff member was spoken to. It simply had to be done, because senior staff were being verbally aggressive towards fairly vulnerable people. That just has to go on record. Doing that didn't help me, but I don't regret the decision.

That's a long post. But to be blunt banking is far from the only sector where bullying managers rum amok, and macho bullshit is the norm. Yet it is one of the few sectors where such behaviour is valorized. And projected as powerful...or even glamorous. Is that healthy? For the sector, or for wider society? If this behaviour is so problematic, why is emulating it the best response?