to think that if you can't spare the staff to clean up a soiled child you can't spare them to supervise one who is sent out of class?

[Kyrptonite]

DS is 4, fairly bright, can be a handful (was referred to CAMHS for suspected ADHD, they wouldn't follow it up) and has toileting issues. He will soil his pants pretty much every day (doctor thinks he has encopresis, finally have a hospital appointment tomorrow).

Before he started school I went in and had a chat with his teacher and the head about the behavioural issues and the soiling. They assured me that there would only be a problem if he was having multiple accidents a day which is perfectly reasonable.

The first 4 weeks he came out of school 3 times absolutely caked in poo. He stunk. The next time it happened the TA came out with him at home time waving his bag of soiled clothing in front of her and said in front of DS that they could smell him this time so changed him. I emailed the school and asked if they could perhaps put his clothes in his PE bag so it was slightly less obvious and embarrassing. Cue meeting with arsey head who said they didn't have to change him and it was only because the TA was available that they could. I explained his medical condition, asked me to bring in some info on it (couldn't she have googled?!) and she said she hadn't heard of it and could I put DS in pull ups.

I refused the pull up idea as his accidents at school are very infrequent (he seems to save that for when he is at home) and I was worried that the other children might see him in pull ups when getting changed for PE and tease him. The head teacher said that they didn't have the staff available to change him and that 4/5 year old children wouldn't notice a child in a nappy!

DS's teacher took DP aside before half term and basically said that DS's behaviour stood out a mile from the rest of the class. DP explained again that the Dr had also had concerns and could the school involve the SENCO. We went to an open afternoon at the school and it seemed as though the headteacher kept looking at DS, waiting for him to do something and tell him off. I thought I was imagining this but DP saw it too and he isn't the most observant!

DS keeps saying he's been sent out of his classroom or excluded from activities. I ask him why and he can't tell me. He genuinely can't seem to understand what he has done wrong or he just can't remember. I'm slightly confused as to who is supervising him when he's been sent out. surely the school don't just leave a 4 year old outside a room on their own? Especially one who has been a PITA and could do anything left to their own devices.

I'm also baffled as to how, if DS isn't being left alone, they have the staff to supervise him but not change him when he's had an accident that is not through any fault of his own.

Also, surely sending a child out doesn't actually help unless they understand what they have done. Should they not be trying to support him to behave how they want him to?

I am well aware that he is no angel. I'm just confused as to whether this is normal for reception or if I need to speak to the teacher.

Thank you. I hadn't heard about Senna but we are seeing the consultant again in 6 weeks so I will mention it to him.

watching daybreak yesterday and they were saying kids should start school at 2 this is precisely my point.the teachers say they help out but they don,t i rember when my child was 3 in nursery she was potty trained but ocasional acciden,t happen and i came to collect her the teacher said oh she,s done it again infront of every one and said my child was lazy [had a poo inpants]

i was so angry the next day i said could you please remind her to go to the toilet has sometimes she may just be excited and you know how children are for holding it in i said if you won,t ill take her to the toilet mysel fat the start of nursery. i told them she was potty trained before she came here and now she,s here it,s got worse so that day the teacher said my dd had gone to toilet and they made sure that day on it never happened again i,m cross you have to shout a little to be heard sometimes.

I do have grounds to judge them on this - as a parent with experience of the school. I can only judge them on how they treat me and my child and it wasn't good. My child was in that school (it was a nursery class attached to a primary) for two terms so plenty of time to evaluate their standards and judge them accordingly. And they didn't "raise it with me". They told me, and her, that she would have to leave the school if it happened again. Oh and also accused her of "lying" about it. Clearly it is utterly ludicrous to threaten a three year old with removal from school because of four accidents over the course of three months. As it happens, she never did it again (because, ironically, she didn't have any problems being potty trained and grew out of accidents very, very quickly) but their attitude was totally unbending and aggressive towards me. I ended up offering to bring in my Sainsbury's receipts so that they could see I no longer ordered any nappies...they were determined that I was one of "those" parents - enough to make me have quite a bit of sympathy for anyone who does struggle with potty training because their determination to demonise us was quite shocking.

But I am not meaning to derail this thread - my point is that the way the school have managed this for the OP and her son is not thoughtful or appropriate (and that is not unusual if my experience is anything to go by). The shame is, as many posters have pointed out, there are schools managing this in a very thoughtful and sympathetic way and it is perfectly manageable if they wish to make it so. If they are not set up to manage this then they need to reallocate resources because nothing could be more expected than young children having accidents.

My twins had unreliable soiling issues through pre-school, now at half way through the first term in Reception it's tailed off to very very rarely.

I never, ever had a problem with either school in changing the boys, I just made sure they had a good supply of wipes and spare pants. My two are speech delayed and both schools have SEN provision. I'm disgusted the response you have had and hope it's sorted for you soon.

id also like to point out at the time my daughter was 3 i used to bring a fresh pair of pants in her bag and wipes the nursery suggested to me stop bringing them because my child might rely on being changed but ive always packed a bag with wipes and pants just incase. i think they thought if i leave the bag she would be aware there,s nothing to change into but if i had woulden,t they be in much more of a mess can,t win.

Thank you. He has spare clothes and wipes in his PE bag so I make sure there's always stuff available and the one time he's had a wee accident he changed himself and didn't tell the staff. He's just not able to clean up poo reliably on his own although I am trying to get him to at least have a go.

I have no respect for teachers/TAs who refuse to change soiled children if required. If you teach/care for early years children then poo, wee and sick go along with the job and that's that. Children cannot learn when they are uncomfortable/worried.

If the school "can't spare" somebody to sort out a child after an accident, then they are not staffing their early years classes appropriately.

well said greensleeves i think to make a child feel small like they have done somthing what they cant help is unforgivable what doe,s that teach the child that they cant rely on adults and just to hide there accident and feel ashamed.

Is he being sent into another classroom or to the admin staff area?

If your son is thoroughly disrupting the classes education, then it's only fair he is removed. Have you asked the school what he is doing? Have you explained to the school that he doesn't understand?

I do believe they should be changing the child but it might be that staff need to have official training to tick official boxes.

Ring the LEA and ofsted if you feel there is neglect.

In fact I would probably write to the governors after exhausting all avenues with teachers/staff to highlight the neglect. Make sure you use the words 'duty of care'

I work in Early Years and I've never had to have training to change a child. CRB check and safeguarding training but that's it and I think anyone working with young children has to have done safeguarding. I may be wrong though!

We (as a school) have had 'managing continence' training, unfortunately I couldn't attend due to no child care (outside my normal working hours). So training does exist.

I'm a fairly recently qualified primary teacher and before that worked in an Outstanding state nursery school for five years - I've changed more shitty arses than I've had hot dinners and never had specific training for it. Ditto blood and vomit. There's no excuse for neglecting the physical needs of very young children.

Just seen the recent posts re children being potty trained by the time they are 3. Dd was still in nappies at 2 3/4 but then went over to wearing knickers one Monday, was fine on the Monday, had an accident on the Tuesday then apart from 1 accident months later she was fine. Ds on the other hand had no interest in potty training until he was 3 1/2 and didn't fully wear pants until he was nearly 4. I think some children need more time than others. Both went to nursery. I couldn't imagine being told at 3 if ds wasn't potty trained he would be slung out of nursery.

I work in reception and have never been trained to clean up poo either. I've only had to do it a few times over the years, but we did used to have one child that refused to allow us to change him when he had an accident, no matter what we did to try and persuade him, so the only thing we could do was to call his parents and let them deal with it. They weren't happy about it, but there is no way we should be forced into a position where we had to provide intimate care for a child against their will.

If a child was having accidents every day, we would ask parents to deal with it too. It's not fair on the rest of the class if the one support staff member is constantly taken away from the rest of the class. Occasional accidents are not a problem though.

I guess it depends on the level of support available.

I started teaching I the 70s and teachers were not expected to change children who'd had accidents. There were only 2 TAs for the entire school and if one was available then she would do it. Teachers were not allowed to leave the rest of the class unsupervised in order to help, I would expect that to be the same today.

We had a supply of clean knickers available and if it was just wet pants then children were given clean ones to change into and the wet ones sent home. If it was poo and they couldn't deal with it themselves and there wasn't a TA available then a parent was sent for. This didn't happen often.

I expect the same thing sometimes happens today. In an ideal world there would be a TA available at all times but the world isn't ideal and sometimes there is no alternative but to send for a parent. Other children cannot be left unsupervised.

Your post resounded with me. My DS also is currently under Camhs and has had bowel/soiling issues for many years. He's now 9yo. At 3/4 he presented as hyperactive - so similar to ADHD but as he's matured he's called down and the real social communication issues have emerged and he's being assessed for ASD/AS.
His cons pead has suggested his bowel issues are related to anxiety and sensory issues. For example he doesn't like leaving an activity to go yo the loo, rushes back so doesn't empty bowels properly send only seems to realise he needs a poo - as he needs it iykwim? He's been on laxido (movicol) for a number of years now so impaction isn't an issue and it hasn't resolved the toile ting issue other than he cannot hold stools so prevents further impaction.
I would look again at getting GP to refer to Camhs or developmental pead. Hopefully school will be able to back you up and also continence nurse so there's more weight to the request iykwim?

I'm so sorry both you and your boy are being treated this way. I'm not sure how the school expect hi to improve his behaviour when he doesn't know what he's meant yo be improving.

Pop over to special needs boards - the knowable posters there have been invaluable support to me over the past year.

The training covered a little more than 'cleaning up poo'. As well as how to clean up poo in a way that doesn't leave you wide open to accusations of abuse, it touched on things school should be doing to prevent the need to clean up poo. Hence 'managing continence' not 'managing incontinence'.

I'm not saying that not having training is an excuse to not clean a child who has had an accident- but training is there, and if there are children with known difficulties (who are not being suitably looked after) perhaps the OP should raise the issue with school?

Impaction, encopresis and behavioural problems go together.

The pain and discomfort and anxiety around the bowel issues result in behavioural problems and lack of concentration, inability to sit still etc.

I am really appalled that your poor little boy has been left without a proper diagnosis and treatment for so long. It will take at least as long as the problem has existed to resolve it. You need to follow the treatment religiously, as any break can result in going right back to square one.

I don't think a four year old can be expected to cope with disimpaction treatment and bowel training and go to school, TBH. He will have to have some time off during the initial days and weeks of treatment, at the very least.

I hope you manage to get a plan in place. It does sound as if the school isn't right for him if the HT is as ignorant as it sounds from your post.

I have a meeting with the school on Tuesday. I have just realised that if I pull him out for a week or so whilst we deal with the impaction it could go down as unauthorised absence and I will be fined.

I really don't know what to do.

Surely if he is only 4 he doesn't legally have to be in school?
I would have thought you could get a consultant's letter for disimpaction treatment, if necessary.

Can they not fine before 5 then? I thought it was once he was on a school register then that was it.

I have just realised that if I pull him out for a week or so whilst we deal with the impaction it could go down as unauthorised absence and I will be fined.

No, because you'd tell them to fuck off and they wouldn't dare do anything about it. "See you in court".

friday

DS was saying earlier he likes his teacher but the head teacher hurts his feelings. He won't say why. I'd relish the opportunity to tell them to fuck off right now.