to expect neighbours of the field where my animals live, to warn me about sodding fireworks?

[Sparrowlegs248]

Just that really. 5Horses and some cows. Broken fencing, traumatised panicky animals. Not sure about injuries as too dark to tell. Had i been told that these particular morons neighbours were having fireworks i could have moved animals and administered sedatives. But no. No warning. From an elderly couple too. Annoyed isn't the word.

Madame - your post illustrates quite clearly one of the reasons why I think private fireworks should be banned.
Don't you understand that, with animals, there is sometimes nothing an owner can do to protect them from the outcome of irresponsible actions by others? You can warn me all you like - I have horses in fields or stables, nothing I can do will protect them from their natural instinctive reaction if someone is stupid and cruel enough to let fireworks off too close to them.
Shutting them in can be more dangerous than leaving them out. The only sedation I can give them is light, and will not be effective if their adrenalin gets high. I can't exactly box them all out and ship them off somewhere away from dwellings every November 5th, and even if I did there would still be fireworks going off at other times of the year.
This is the problem, this attitude of "It's not illegal, I want to do it (stamps foot like a child) so I'm going to do it and stuff you and stuff your animals and if there is injury and death it's your fault".

I am not stamping my feet at all. I dislike fireworks but feel that it is not the right of people with animals to dictate what other can and cannot do.

whoa these horse owners are touchy

she wasnt stamping her feet and saying "fuck you horses"

so pleased I only have ferocious pitbulls and feral staffies near me, their owners dont give a shit

Madamecastafiore It is your responsibility to foresee any eventualities in terms of your animals and not foreseeing that fireworks may be set off on 5th November is a bit naïve regardless of the age of neighbours or pattern of previous years celebrations

No, it isn't. The Animals Act, which is strict liability, makes owners of animals liable for injury or damage caused by them. This isn't what has happened here, so isn't applicable.

In tort or delict, the Plaintiff or Pursuer has to prove that a duty of care which was owed was breached and there was a causal link. They do not have to prove their own reasonable foreseeability in avoiding danger, unless the doctrine res ipsa locquiter applies, which I believe there is no equivalent for in English law. A defence may apply, such as contributory negligence, but this isn't what you mean.

I think the habits of the neighbours are entirely relevant and indeed the location and the knowledge of the animals in the field, and if it was brought to court (which the OP has not even suggested but is relevant perhaps in the future), it would be about issues about what the reasonable man would reasonably foresse as likely to injure his neighbour. Who is, of course, those in law who are so likely to be so closely affected by their acts or omissions that they should reasonably have had them in contemplation at the time they were contemplating the act complained of. Law of nuisance is more complicated, however, I don't think its valid to say theres no possibility of a case ever occurring.

But the duty isn't on the owner here to exercise reasonable foreseeability, its the neighbour.

Right, even if we accept OP was "naiive" in regard to her expectations over fireworks on 5th Nov (even though it's a very rural area, even though it's sparsely populated - and therefore less likely on balance of probability that there'd be fireworks at all (in our street of 40 homes we had NO fireworks), even though "elderly" neighbours are less likely to have them etc etc) it still comes back to basic common sense and decency IMO, and the greater burden of responsibility surely falls upon the person(s) letting off fireworks near any animal they know for sure is there. And you can't miss horses or cows surely ?

So it boils down - in some people's opinion - to "shrug, I'm going to have some fireworks and if that means those animals right next door are traumatised and might get hurt then it's not my problem as their owner should have anticipated what I might do."

How bloody selfish (understatement).

I agree Madame

I don't like fireworks either. I dread this time of year because my dogs hate them. As a result we are always at home on November 5th and the weekends either side to look after them. And increasingly New Years Eve unfortunately. It is a flipping nuisance. But they are our animals and our responsibility. if you are an animal owner it is your responsibility to look after them. The onus is on you, no one else.

The OP said she could have taken precautions and moved her animals had she expected them. On the 5th November, you should expect fireworks. It is an advantage if you don't have to experience them.

I can see it is a nuisance for the OP, and worrying. But to refer to her elderly neighbours as morons when they do something once in a blue moon is wrong.

I didn't actually say she was stamping her feet, I referred to "people".

I'm using horses as an example, but sheep and cattle suffer similar damage as a result of irresponsible use of fireworks.

OP - if you come back, could you tell us if you have bad a conversation today with your neighbours and explained your point of view.? And if you have, what was their reaction?

We have had fire works for a week prior to 'Firework night' and expect it to last until at least a week after..

I hate them

It would have been kind of the neighbours to let OP know but perhaps they didn't think. I expect they will next time after OP has asked them to.

However, for people to say that people shouldn't have fireworks because of other people's animals is a bit much. Other people's pets aren't my responsibility, I'm glad to say.

We always had a few fireworks in the garden on November 5th when the DCs were growing up. Neighbours with pets kept them inside.

I had a horse when I was young and every bonfire night was spent with him in the stables because he was afraid of loud bangs. He was my responsibility, so I made sure he had company. I didn't expect people not to have fireworks, that would have been selfish and daft.

However, for people to say that people shouldn't have fireworks because of other people's animals is a bit much

The law doesn't agree. There are many instances where you are prevented from using your property in a way which may harm others. I don't see why fireworks should be excepted. The law seems quite unclear on whether a claim could succeed or not, I'd quite like to see a clarification but I think the time has come for better legislation on use of fireworks anyway. This would solve a lot of these problems.

Shock horror, fireworks on November 5th what ever next. YABU

surely being a good neighbour is:

either not letting off fireworks or talking to owner of the animals.

and

being prepared to move/comfort your animals if a neighbour wants to let off some fireworks in their own garden.

this is not a difficult problem to solve.

my back garden a joins a paddock and at the front in the summer are 20 polo horses. we just all need to follow the rule of not being a dick.

LessMissAbs currently the law does agree. It's perfectly ok to let off fireworks in your back garden. You may want it to change but I very much doubt that it will.

Some people here seem to think that in terms if animal husbandry, dogs and cats are comparable to horses. They really are not. And how is waiting in a stable with one pony doable if there are several to care for? In any case, to stay in a stable with a frightened large thoroughbred or warmblood would be very stupid or very brave.

Which law would that be then Morgause?

Would it be common law, which lacks a precedent on the point, or legislation that does not exist, or the principles of delict and tort which may possibly be extended to if a case was brought, or one that you have just made up all of your own?

The law changes all the time, particularly when there is no legislation in place. We are in a common law system operating judicial precedent.

I'm actually quite dispassionate about changing the law. However, as a law lecturer I get quite wound up about non-lawyers attempting to state the law and getting it wrong.

Certainly there is the possibility of such a case being brought. No-one can say with certainty whether or not it might proceed, but if I was lived to a field containing animals, I'd certainly make it a consideration in whether to set off fireworks or not, in case I was sued for any resulting injuries or damage.

To me, fireworks and 5th November traditions do not entail that there is a free for all in setting off fireworks all over the country. What passes for acceptable in an urban location or a business premises such as a hotel which frequently runs such displays isn't quite the same in a more rural area.

And the reason horse owners are 'touchy ' is because they give a shit . They're the ones who foot the vets bills . The ones who have to live with the consequences of 'its just a few fireworks '. The ones who as a rule don't have access to different fields all over the place so can't shift them to a quieter area for the night , and might not have the means to transport them if they did . The ones who end up with traumatised or injured animals which may themselves become a danger , or worse , end up with no animals at all .

People who want to see fireworks could go to an organised display, as our village does .. No ones asking for them to be banned completely .

Not unreasonable at all. I can't believe the number if people who are saying she should suck it up as it's bonfire night. We'd let our neighbours know if we were planning a display/having a party.

How would anyone here really feel if they caused something like this:
www.leaderlive.co.uk/news/127967/horse-killed-in-stampede-after-tanyfron-fireworks-go-off.aspx
www.horseandhound.co.uk/news/pbfireworks-blamed-for-horses-death-i/

Note - not on November 5th, which shows how hard it is for animal owners to prepare for fireworks.

That would be the law that had us all round at our neighbour's for a few fireworks and baked potatoes, LessMissAbs. She's a very senior police officer and I'm sure she'd have mentioned it if we were breaking the law.

The remote possibility of a case being brought is of no interest to the vast majority who will carry on legally enjoying fireworks. Until the is a change in the law.

But I'll pass on your thoughts to my neighbour next Nov 5th.

The OP did say though that the couple who let off the fireworks didn't know where she lived, it may have been spontaneous as visitors brought fireworks with them. If I had a field full of animals I would put a note through the door of any houses backing onto it asking them to contact me if they planned to let off fireworks so I could move the animals.
If the OP had been a neighbour then the couple may have asked her but it sounds as though she lives some distance from the field.

Right Morgause. Well I suggest that your senior police officer neighbour checks out that she doesn't have anyone next to her who might be injured by her fireworks display. Because being a senior police officer isn't going to protect her, and I am sure she is aware of the link between actions and consequences ie actions don't always occur without consequences. Its not just animals who might be injured, there are plenty of examples of both children and adults being injured at unlicensed displays. And quite a few inferior court decisions awarding damages to them.

Still waiting to hear which law that is though?

Ywbu to not expect them but yanbu about fireworks generally, I do think they should be banned privately just too dangerous and yes yes to banning those god awful Chinese lanterns.

I think also its a minority who enjoy fireworks, go to displays, etc.. I am sure if you counted them ie more than 33 million people, more than half the population, would not be enjoying fireworks on November 5th.

Bangs.head.on.wall.

Yes, Tuppence that's just it. I just can't imagine living right next door to a field containing livestock and letting fireworks off without a pang of conscience or consideration - sweeping aside any thoughts for anyone else because it's my "right" to enjoy fireworks whenever I want. So I may not be breaking any law - though the legal arguments put forward by LessMiss are very interesting - but there's any number of unpleasant, dangerous and/or inconsiderate behaviours which may not be technically illegal but are still downright selfish and nasty. Should we all go about thinking only of ourselves whatever the consequences for others ?

I'm agog at those whose replies seem to imply that any injuries, fatalities, damage to property, ensuing expenses (repairs, vets bills and so on) etc wouldn't be on their conscience if they chose to launch fireworks immediately next door to large animals. How would those same irresponsible "it's not my problem" types feel if a loose horse careered straight into an oncoming car and people were injured or killed as a result ? Something which should have been preventable. Would they still accept no responsibility for what their actions had caused ?