about my mum's finances?

[KittyShcherbatskaya]

I am posting in AIBU because I could really do with some external perspective on this, but it's a sensitive issue so please be gentle!

My sister has always been very dependent on my DM for support, practical and financial. A couple of years ago my DM had a severe stroke which left her paralysed and frail, and had to move into nursing care. After this my sister hit the bottle very heavily - she had always been a drinker but mum had picked up the pieces. My sister accumlulated a series of drink related convictions including assaults, lost her job and had her children removed. She recently completed a detox and has been sober since.

The financial issue is that just before DM's stroke she had agreed to loan my sister a deposit for a bigger house, my sister was going to rent out her existing home and buy the new one to live in. After the stroke my sister had my mum's bank details so transferred the money out and bought the house while DM was still in intensive care. Now a couple of years on my DM is going through her savings quite quickly, financing the cost of her nursing home. My sister has now sold the house and there was no equity beyond the original deposit cost. However she says she needs this money to live on as she was sacked from her job. She says she intends to pay it back later, she has made application for benefits and says her goal is to become an alcohol support worker - I asked a friend in that line of work what the chances are of her getting paid work in that area and he said she would need to have been in recovery for a couple of years at least. If she did get a paid job then, the income from it is less for a whole year than my sister owes my DM.

I told my sister that I thought this was not acceptable, as DM needs her money for her care. She told me that she needs to prioritise her own health and DM has enough money to pay her bills for 18 months, and then can sell her house. She said I was putting unfair pressure on her about money at a point when I should be supporting her recovery, and that I am selfish.

I should explain that my DM isn't in a position to address this herself - she is experiencing quite a lot of confusion since her stroke, she thinks her care home is a hospital and she will be going home, and that she still has her job, etc. However her confusion is not severe enough at the moment to count as not having capacity to take her own decisions.

I have tried to set this out fairly, do you think there is any degree to which AIBU about this? FWIW I believe that my sister has an undiagnosed personality disorder (I work in a related field so this isn't a totally gonzo analysis) and I do try to take this into account in my dealings with her. At the moment though I feel that if she doesn't pay my DM back her money I will have reached the end of the road with her. I recognize though that I am very emotional about all of this and am willing to listen to being told I am BU.

Unfortunately Social Services will not pay for her Nursing Home if your mum owns a property - they will make arrangements for the property to be sold (possibly after your mum's death) to meet the costs.

As littleblackno says, they will not be impressed that money was frittered away by your sister as they will see this both as elder abuse, and as avoidance of paying nursing home fees. They may well pursue your sister for money.

I think your mum's capacity decision is probably very difficult - people are allowed to make bad decisions but equally vulnerable older people with capacity should be protected from abuse.

Please get you self fully informed by asking Social Services for advice (mention the words vulnerable adult as much as possible) and seeing a solicitor.

It's also just dawned on me that you could call the Action on Elder Abuse helpline for confidential advice.

www.elderabuse.org.uk/Mainpages/Services/services.html

It would help me if I understood how much difference that other money could make to your mother. How long would it pay her bills for? would it be long enough for her to get better before selling her own house? ie, do you think your mother can expect to live independently again- or will she be in care for the rest of her life, so eventually all the money is going to go?

I could see an argument for saying that if the money is going to go in care bills anyway, your mother might honestly prefer that your sister is financially safe. That doesn't mean that I think your sister did the right thing- far from it, she is clearly being abusive. But if your mother were compos mentis she might make this assessment for herself- how long would that extra cash keep me in the care home for? will it save my house? if not, and I have to sell up anyway, would I prefer to give it to my very damaged and vulnerable daughter?

Hard on you, of course. and I repeat- I don't think your sister should just take the money in this way.

Thanks all for your comments. beast the money my sister owes would pay the bills for about two years. Mum is never going to be able to live independently again so I think she should get on with selling her home now - it's not in a very saleable area and will probably take a while to shift. She's never going to live in it again so it might as well be used for her care costs, it's a difficult conversation though as mum wants to believe she's going to get better.

I can see your point that mum might want my sister to have the money anyway. I believe she's left everything to her anyway, so from my sister's point of view she is using it now, when she needs it, rather than after my mum is gone. However it is an expensive care home and from what I understand, once a person can't afford it any longer, social services have a ceiling amount per month they will pay, and this home is above that level. I assume that means they would move her to a less expensive place, though others may know more about how this works than I do. When we looked for a home for mum we saw some truly appalling places, like waiting rooms for death. I would want my mum to be in a safe, caring, engaging place as long as possible, and use her resources, including the house for this, rather than continuing to prop my sister up. I am aware that that last sentence sounds unsympathetic to my sister, but it's hard for me to balance out.

littleblackno the social worker who investigated before was so awful I have lost faith a bit, but maybe there are idiots in all professions and it's worth another discussion with social services. Going to check out that elder abuse link now. Thank you all for your advice and for not flaming me for losing patience with my sister, who is both damaged and vulnerable, that's spot on.

Actually thinking about what beast has said I can see a different perspective. The value of the house could pay my mum's care home bills for about 12 years, and sadly there is a good chance she won't last that long. Maybe I should forget about the money my sister 'borrowed', and concentrate on getting the house on the market as soon as possible, as it will probably take a while to sell. That way, mum is safe for the foreseeable future, and so is my sister.

It feels wrong to me to take money from someone in my mum's position, but I am not a recovering alcoholic or personality disordered, and when it comes down to it my mum would be an awful lot happier if she knew my sister was unlikely to be arrested/drunk/suicidal.

We have had that with my own gran. This is an extremely difficult situation because:
1- the dc who suddenly can't rely on the person feels they are being given a hard time for no reason
2- they are so used to be helped out that they can't see it's not a normal situation and they need to be independent. The problem is they don't know how to as they have never done it before.
3- the other children look at their mum, the financial issue, the potential financial cost for them and how unfair it is to them as they never got any financial help from their mum.

I am afraid that there is no easy solution as you will always have one person that will feel someone else has been unfair to them.

My experience is that:
1- your sister should not have access to your mum cards anymore. She has no POA and no right to have access to her accounts like this.
2- You need a full appraisal of your mum financial situation. How much the care home costs, other outgoings etc...
3- unless you and your other sister are ready to cut all ties with your younger sister, the loan issue will be the last thing you can do to get finance for your mum
4- you need to discuss your mum finances, all 3 children together, with just the bare numbers. No emotions involved, do a spread sheet and look at cost involved, what can be done or not.
5- have an estate planner involved. Your mum is still seen as having full mental capacity. There is probably some protection you cab get her re the nursing home so that she will still be looked after even when funds have run out (which will happen at some point anyway. The issue is when and do you expect your mum to outlive that or not)

I think you need to find out how money has been removed from your Mum's account, particularly the 'loan' for the house deposit. Is your sister operating your Mum's account online? This would be the easiest way for her to transfer a large sum of money, and other sums on an ad hoc basis. If this is not the case, then she may have persuaded your mum to let her sign on the account, possibly on a third party mandate (which is only valid if the account holder is competent). The bank will not reveal any information, but I would go and see a solicitor for advice and also consider that you may have to get the police involved. If you have legal advice on your home/car insurance, you can ring and get advice for free.
Do you have any access to Mum's bank statements at all? If mum has told your sister her PIN numbers then it is not fraud, but is is dubious behavior. If the bank become aware that mum is not capable of operating the account, then they will stop it, pending a court of protection order, but that will mean that they won't pay anything, even care bills.

If the worst happens, then whoever is mum's executor will have to sort out what has gone on, and your sister may find she is liable for a nasty tax bill at the very least!!

I don't know the answer to this but what I do know is you have to protect yourself. If your Mum runs out of money at any point SS can go back as far as they like in your Mum's financial affairs and any money spent whilst she is in a NH by your sister is likely to be deemed as deprivation of assets as she is likely to need the money for her care in the future.

Please go and see a solicitor who specialises in this area, knows the score and can advise you of the specifics of your Mum's situation. Keep written records of all phone calls etc as you never know when you might need this information in times to come.

YANBU.

Your sister is, but she's an alcoholic and an addict (even in recovery, that's just what she is) and of course her priority is her own health.

However, someone needs to safeguard your mother, and it sounds as though you're trying to do the best you can.

Personally (and we've discussed this in my family with the relevant generations) I feel that if someone needs to be in a nursing home, as your mother does, then they should sell up their house (if they own it and there are no dependents ir a spouse still there) as it's no longer "home." You say your mother could be comfortable on the proceeds, and it would stop you worrying about her.

But you need to ring fence that money from your sister. Which will be tough, so maybe involve a solicitor. But you have to maybe see her health problems (her alcoholism) as separate from her -- it's then not a moral judgement of her, but a common nse acknowledgement that in this area, she can't be involved with your mother's care, as she has her own problems.

Good luck. Your mother's lucky you're looking out for her.

Also, Help the Aged can give you advice, and direct you to the expert help you need.

Good Luck, kitty. I think if you sell up now and keep your mum safe, it may give your sister time to recover and maybe even do the right thing.

even if that never happens, if your mum does make a recovery, she may have more chance of being independent in a small flat than in a big house, so having sold the old house and having cash gives more flexibility. Indeed, that's how I would put it to your mum- lets get you something easier to cope with.

But with all that money potentially sloshing about, it would be absolutely right to get a structure that protects it.

If your sister is applying for benefits will she not be turned down due to the money from the house ?

As in your sister many not get any benefits while she still has the money.

I hadn't thought of that ACF - there is a ceiling amount you can have before you lose eligibility isn't there? I'm not sure how much that is but I'd be fairly sure it must be less than she has. Maybe she is not declaring it or saying it's mum's, but either way that would be fraudulent.

The more I look at my sister's situation the more awful it seems - a friend who works in criminal justice told me that the combination of being sacked so no reference and criminal record means she will really struggle to find any paid work at all, the best she could hope for is probably factory work. She previously held a very responsible position in a respected field so this is a waste of the skills she has, and a real shame.

Thank you to everyone who commented and gave me good advice, I think legal advice to protect my mum's remaining assets is the next step.

Yes. For JSA I think - only think I may be wrong- it is 16k. Dont have any advice sorry. Good luck with it all.