to be annoyed at someone being offended by this - "FEED THE MONKEY"?

[redshifter]

I thought it would be discussed on here, as it is all everyone was talking about at work. I guess not many MumsNetters are into football, but I was interested in the opinons of fellow MumsNetters about this.

[Dawndonnaagain]

People who claim any reference to a monkey could be seen as offensive are being ridiculous.
Want to explain that to my DD? She's been called, among other things, a Monkey all the way through school. It's rude, it's offensive and has been associated, in a negative manner with football for more years than I care to remember. My opinion is: people who cannot see that a reference to a monkey, in a situation where it has ALWAYS been used in a derogatory manner, are being ridiculous.

[NotYoMomma]

but he even said 'it's like the old nasa joke - feed the monkey'

if they didnt understand they could have googled it.

he was talking about an actual monkey!

[LouiseAderyn]

People need to get a grip. Hodgson got us to the world cup this week and instead of being congratulated, he has to contend with this shit!

I agree with the poster who said sometimes a monkey is just a monkey! I call my dd a little monkey all the time ( because she is always climbing on stuff ) and am handing a grip to people morons who are determined to see racism in everything, even when it clearly isnt there!

[LouiseAderyn]

Dawn, it's rude and offensive if it's meant to be by the person saying it - if their intention is to insult and hurt, but not if it isn't.

[anon2013]

I call my DS a cheeky monkey all the time, never thought of it like that till now...

[TheBigJessie]

If the person reporting wasn't simply trying to get rid of the manager, I can see why they'd draw that conclusion. Me, I would have googled, but I am famously meticulous, to an obsessive level.

Black football player being referred to as a monkey does set off a klaxon in the head of any nice person who has experience of football and the racist culture we're still eradicating.

[Dawndonnaagain]

There is a huge difference in calling your child a cheeky monkey to calling somebody a monkey because they are darker skinned than others, which, in football, (and in dd's case) is what happened. So, fine, call your dd a cheeky monkey, but keep the term off the pitch and away from the terraces. Crikey, if you were going to deconstruct the joke, then the monkey comes off best, but that's not the damn point.

[anon2013]

It's total bad luck that the player mentioned was black. Could've easily been anything. Player who told the press has only done this to undermine the manager

[Nancy66]

The 'monkey' thing has a huge significance in football.

when racism was at its worst spectators would make monkey noises when a black player had the ball and do the arm gestures. Some threw bananas on to the pitch.

It mostly doesn't happen in the English/Scottish games now. It still happens a LOT in Spain and Italy.

So, I see that it was an unfortunate choice of word given the game's past but I also see that no harm was intended.

[themaltesefalcon]

Anyone offended by this is a prick. Fact.

[Caitlin17]

If the offended player felt he couldn't speak to Hodge or one of the other coaches he could have referred the matter to the Football Players Association, i.e. their union or to someone in Kick out Racism.

If a racist incident happened in your work place is the first person you call The Sun?

[Sausageeggbacon]

I was chatting with DS1 about this and we have decided no intention to insult but it could have been explained better. The suspicion here is that Jermaine Defoe is the leak as he is one of the players in the squad that is most likely not to go to the world cup. A mixture of resentment and doubt your future in the England Squad could be the issue that got this started.

This when taken in context with the meaning of the joke is not racism and the first reports were deliberately looking for a reaction by not explaining the context. Those of us that are a bit older may have understood but guess age comes into this as well.

[babybythesea]

I guess what it comes down to is what context you believe is more valid in this particular instance.

1. The fact that the manager used an old joke to make a point to his players, in a closed setting (ie not in a public venue), at a half-time team talk, and that it was just his huge misfortune that a) the player involved was black b) the joke happened to feature a monkey as opposed to goldfish c) someone else in the dressing room didn't know the joke or didn't care and went off on one with a big wooden spoon.
   
   
2. The use of the word monkey has major racist connotations, especially in football, which cannot be overcome and even if the joke refers to an actual monkey rather than to the more insulting use of the word that it has now acquired, it still shouldn't have been said.
   
   
   I understand the second bit. I'm not a Daily Fail sympathiser. I have been going to football for years and I hate even the swearing that comes with it. I'm not being obtuse or condoning deliberately racist language. Calling someone a monkey because of their skin colour is so fundamentally wrong, because calling anyone names based on something different is fundamentally wrong, and this has the added history of hangings, abuse, torture to go with it.
   
   I just can't see that this is what happened here. He wasn't calling Townsend or anyone else a monkey - he was using an old joke to ask his players to do something.
   
   I am trying to phrase this right, without causing more offence, which is hard to do on-line. I am interested though in the debate: At what point do we draw a line? As in, having worked with monkeys (real ones), would I have been offensive if I compared human behaviour (and specifically the behaviour of my audience - you know, make it a bit more personal and fun) to monkey behaviour while talking to people about them? What about if there was a black person in my audience? What about if my audience was exclusively black people? Because it's just occurred to me I might have been on dangerous ground with this. Any monkey reference could well have been taken as offensive. Or does the context allow for this not to be the case?
   If it is context, take my scenario one above - what could be changed to make it non-offensive (assuming for the moment the manager does want to make the talk more light-hearted than just a dry list of instructions, and has decided to use an old, clichéd joke to do so)? Use of a different animal in the joke (which makes it pointless because the joke features a monkey). Being said about a white player? It not being taken beyond the place it was meant to be heard (ie a motivational, tactical talk for a select few individuals, most of whom (included the player involved) didn't take any racist intent from it)?
   
   I'm not trying to be daft or misunderstand or play down the seriousness of racism in football or society generally. But I think the big thing here for me is that it's not like the use of the word nigger which has no other reference points, other than to describe a person with darker-than-white skin tone, and any joke which features it is not going to be light-hearted. However, monkey is a word which has another meaning (one meant in this context) - it's an animal. A real thing which exists and is talked about. Moreover an animal which has similar features to humans, a huge intelligence, and lends itself to comparisons with humans. Are we really saying that anytime anyone says monkey, we must take it to mean the derogatory version?

[DuckToWater]

I can't believe this is even a story, no-one was offended, the player involved has tweeted as such.

What I'd like to know though is which player thought the joke was a concern in the first place and thought to phone The Sun?

Just so I can add them to my AssClown List.

Meanwhile, FIFA turn a blind eye to actual racism, such as England players being subject to racist chanting abroad.

[limitedperiodonly]

Probably not racist. Inept, though.

What I find funny is that Greg Dyke, Hodgson, fans and rival football writers are whining about The Sun undermining the team.

So an England player complains of a possible racist comment by the manager, even though it's a bit far-fetched, and you say: 'Sorry mate, I'll pass just in case it puts us off.'

I'd keep that a bit quiet from my editor.

[DuckToWater]

Plus the fact Hodgson is about the most intelligent and multiculturally aware manager anyone could ever hope for.

[DuckToWater]

Also it might be an old joke, but I've never heard it, and DH and I laughed out loud when I read it out this morning.

[BeCool]

This situation (from what I've read) screams racism from the point of view of the person who is claiming the comment was racist, rather than the person who made the comment IYKWIM.

I thought the reference was clearly to a monkey in space - i.e. isolated and alone, as an undefended well positioned football player might be.

I do not believe that if my DC were white I could call them "little monkeys" but as they are black it would be racist of me to do so.

In my mind there is no connection at all between monkeys and black people - why would there be? I would think this is the same for most people.

Having said that I do get from reading the above that there are sensitivities with footballers because of previous clearly racist incidents & abuse of black/mixed race players by racist morons.

But that does not mean that every reference to a monkey in the realm of football or black players is racist. I think it just means someone is out to undermine the manger and the England team by reporting it as a racist/offensive incident.

[EldritchCleavage]

Another one who agrees with Colder. And Shelby.

And don't assume the complainant is black-might be, but we simply don't know. Nor do we know whether the terms in which the player spoke to The Sun (or his intentions when he did) are fairly represented in their article about it. Because, y'know, they do love a bit of controversy, especially about the England team. And if it doesn't actually exist they will foment it.

But all these posts saying connecting the word 'monkey' to racism and black people is ridiculous should have a bit of humility, for God's sake. We know that rationally that's true, but then we also know it happens to us all the time, and people should hear that.

And I just don't accept that it is so terribly difficult to know what to say nowadays, and the many other variations on this viewpoint that get posted on these kind of threads.

[Dawndonnaagain]

Sorry themaltesefalcon are you actually able to read?

[NotYoMomma]

I dont think anyone has assumed the complaintant is black?

they have assumed that they either didnt get the joke or were out to cause trouble

they has also said that there were other waus to check or raise the issue before running to a tabloid

[sashh]

WyrdSista

Excellent points.

It is all about context. You also have to take into context the history of that context.

I never understood the black=monkey racism as a child (made no sense to me and I am probably on the spectrum) but in football there is a strong association

Black players having monkey noises made at them or bananas thrown at them. So although I might tell the NASA joke in the pub I would not tell it in a football dressing room.

I certainly would not use it, in any environment, to explain to someone to pass the work on for a black person to do, that is making a racist link that is not in the original joke.

It's all about context.

A football manager should be aware of that.

[EldritchCleavage]

It was said upthread someone thought it was Jermaine Defoe, who is black.

[LouiseAderyn]

But they said it was possibly JD because he is most likely to be left out of the world cup team, not because he is black.

[limitedperiodonly]

The Sun have made hay with it and the person reporting it probably has an axe to grind.

But that said, I don't find it at all odd that someone might go to a newspaper with a story that would probably fall on deaf ears at the FA because of their desire to support the manager.

Even if it is a ghastly tabloid.