to ask about Gove allowing schools to employ unqualified teachers?

[LordElpuz]

I heard it was on the cards but didn't know he'd already implemented it (has he?).

So a "teacher" doesn't need Qualified Teacher Status to teach in a school any more? Is this primary and secondary?

Does that mean that DS's Head Teacher could let the TAs take over the class permanently?

Is this really happening or are HT's being ethical about it and only employing teachers with QTS?

In fairness University lecturers are rewarded for their research. It is that that will lead to promotion and accolades. No one, except the students, care if your teaching is crap.

Middle, I don't dispute this at all. People are promoted in academia on the strength of their research rather than excellence in teaching, so it's inevitable that research will be the priority for many - and who can blame them?! My point was that, while these people are evidently experts in their chosen fields, it doesn't automatically follow that they will be any good at imparting this knowledge to other people!

"All children deserve to have the right to be taught by a qualified teacher. If someone cannot be bothered to train/learn for what equates to about 9 months and complete basic tests in literacy and numeracy, then I do not want them teaching my DD."

Blissx I'm afraid I have to take issue with this to an extent. I did a degree in a specialist subject then decided a few years later to leave this area and train to be a primary teacher. Unfortunately I hadn't gained high enough honours in my degree to do a PGCE so I got a job doing something else instead (although I was heartbroken). I'm now a TA in a private school (year 2 currently) and am constantly being praised for my abilities, particularly when my teacher is off sick and I have to step in. I also teach one subject as an unqualified teacher and I believe I am a better teacher of this subject than some of the qualified year 2 staff.

It is not that I "cannot be bothered", I would love to be able to train fully. However, despite gaining a second degree I now can't afford to do a PGCE. Up until last year there was the option of GTP (training on the job), but I chose to start a family first and now this option is no longer available. There is a replacement scheme, but I would not be able to stay at my school to do this, which I really want to do.

I think you are right in that class teachers should be qualified, but it is not as simple as saying they can't be bothered.

(Sorry this is so long)

I agree Jinsei, having great knowledge, and being able to impart it, are two different schools. I was taught at University on one course, by a lecturer who genuinely was a leader in his field. He was so so terrible, that when I gave my mum some examples, she suspected that it was deliberate so that he was given as little teaching time as possible.

Do you think the Tories/Michael Gove give a fuck about teaching standards for the great unwashed who don't go to private schools? And that is how they see us/them, by the way.

Their agenda is as follows: shrink the state as far as possible so their rich friends pay less tax, then rubbish all those they see as Marxist/Leninist unionised professions which might interfere with point one.

All our children deserve properly qualified competent teachers. They are more likely to get them if people are trained to a good standard and it would help if people in charge of schools know about child protection, too. Do you really want your child to go to a school where the head doesn't know about safeguarding? (Finola's post)

No doubt there are unqualified people who can teach well, but this Government isn't inviting them into schools because of that, they don't like unionised professions defying them and encouraging others to do so, so the more unconnected people from industry and elsewhere they get, the better. They are less likely to join the NUT/NASUWT. And they will pay them less. Academies and free schools can set their own terms and conditions.

Also, the supporters and the "my friend is the bestest teacher ever ever ever known in my lovely private school" brigade would like any old person being allowed to teach in schools would they? And anyone can run them? Schools allowed to run themselves because everyone does it better than teachers if they are allowed to? All unregulated, welcome all, standards all over the place different for each town and county?

I don't believe it's QTS which makes a good teacher: it's personality, attitude, enthusiasm.. obviously they must be well qualified, with a degree. But QTS? Most teachers don't learn properly till their first classroom role (paid, not a placement) and sometimes the best teachers in the world have fewer academic quals. My English teacher was useless, ditzy, incompetent and had a degree from Oxford! Like most careers, what makes a great teacher is people skills, the ability to bring a subject to life, entusiasm, patience and knowing how to explain something (which is simple to you) to a child and have them understand perfectly. That's a skill they don't teach in University.

Lizzids, I don't disagree that all qualified teachers are perfect and vice versa. My biggest issue is with Gove and his blanket-oh well, let's just let anyone teach, rather than looking at ways in which initial teacher training and on the job training can be made better. However, I would have to say that if I was paying for my DD's education and found out she was being taught by a TA, I would be fuming. There are no procedures in place to ensure that you ARE a better teacher and that in itself is what is wrong.

Also, the supporters and the "my friend is the bestest teacher ever ever ever known in my lovely private school" brigade would like any old person being allowed to teach in schools would they?

No actually I wouldn't. Like I said my DH teaches children in schools - schools that wouldn't be able to offer what he is teaching the pupils if he didn't volunteer. He's an excellent teacher. He isn't qualified.

IMO I think it is madness to miss out on the expertise of people because they aren't QTS.

My daughter's private primary school employs I would say 75% QTS and 25% non-QTS. I have absolutely no problem with this and the results they get suggests they're doing a damn fine job!

I am an unqualified teacher. I teach Classics in a private school. I have a 1st from Oxford in my subject. My first couple of years, my behaviour management was hopeless but I learned from experience and I am now a good classroom manager and a very good teacher. I'm not sure a PGCE would have helped much with the behaviour management side of things, to be honest. It'sssomething you can only really learn by doing.

There are some very hysterical responses on here. I presume that appointments will still need the backing of the Head and Governors, who aren't suddenly going to let anyone wander in off the street because they fancy giving teaching a go
This is so that people with 'real world' experience but no PGCE aren't automatically discounted. It has been going on in the private sector for years often with great results.
The drama teacher at my (private) secondary was a former stage actress who had worked with a theatre company for years before becoming a teacher. She was a wonderful and inspirational woman, who wouldn't have been 'improved' by being made to do a PGCE before starting the job.

This isn't about devaluing teaching qualifications, but giving excellent teachers the options of state jobs as well as private ones.

I suspect teaching would be better taught by an apprenticeship scheme. So working as a TA, alongside day release classes. But the entry standards would have to be higher than they are for TAs.

I am under no illusion though that this proposal is about improving teaching.

who wouldn't have been 'improved' by being made to do a PGCE before starting the job. No, but then no one has been saying that per se. What we are saying is, that should your former teacher have gone through some training, the person making the appointment would have had more information to go on, before making the appointment, rather than crossing fingers, just because they might be cheaper or in your case, an actress that would look good for the private school. If we are going anecdotal, I could count on one hand the god awful teachers whom I had at private secondary school, who weren't qualified and it showed.

On the other side, if your Drama teacher wasn't very good, she may likely not have got through to the end of the training and not done any potential damage to children in the future. I worked in industry before becoming a teacher and I was quite prepared to go through training, as I did not presume that just because I knew my subject, I could teach. However, there wasn't just the PGCE route, but many on the job ones that still exist. If they are not fit for purpose, Gove should be looking at that, not pushing in industry bods in at the deep end and hoping for the best (and then hiding when it goes wrong).

You presume that no Headteacher will employ someone 'just off the street', but as I think has already been pointed out, even Headteachers themselves are being given posts, unqualified. That is unacceptable and can be avoided.

Re the headteacher with no teaching experience/quals, I was discussing this very topic wiht a friend's husband, he is head of history in a secondary school. I asked him how much teaching he gets in and whether he enjoys the managerial side. He said that there is no reason for a Head to be a teacher and that the job could be done perfectly adequately by an experienced manager as his HT does no teaching and is just a pen pusher. So having non-teacher Heads doesn't really bother me. Although I am sure that there are teachers on here who may will give plenty of arguments on the flip side that I would be v interested in

I am a manager. There have been ongoing discussions in management theory for a long time about whether you need to have in depth knowledge of the jobs of the people you are managing - preferably by actually having done the job or a similar one.

Personally from experience, I think it does make a difference in achieving high quality management. But you can achieve satisafactory amnagement without.

My DH is regularly asked for advice on behaviour management by teachers who have QTS. He has been OFSTED-ed twice and received Outstanding both times.The friends I have who have done the PGCE route seem to have had almost no training on behaviour management. In addition there is a huge drop out in the first few years, which indicates something about the selection/training really isn't working. Not cheap for the taxpayer either.

unqualified teachers are very cheap. i know, i used to be one. when i was paid on the unqualified scale, i was making thousands less than an NQT, and i had 3 years teaching experience at that point

since unqualified only means 'does not have qts' rather than inexperienced, i would think that would be a powerful incentive for schools.

previously there was a limit as to how long you could work as an unqualified teacher (i don't remember if it was a total number of years or just years at a given school), i guess this is gone now?

since school are not recieving more money, and their greatest expenditure is on salaries, it makes sense to hire unqualified teachers. it's not like parents would even necessarily know- i couldn't tell you what my own colleagues' qualifications are, let alone those at my childrens' school

Yes, unfortunately school hasn't managed to recruit a qualified ICT teacher and we really are at the point that the DCs are muddling through it by themselves to the point it would be better to timetable something else.

DS's English teacher was on strike today and his lesson was taken by the head teacher, no less! DS said it was the best lesson he's had for a long time.

I think it would be tragic for a school to have a head teacher who wasn't a trained teacher and who couldn't step in and show that he or she understood what it's like both to teach, and to learn.

Blissx Sorry, I didn't reply yesterday - RL and all that! I do agree that Gove's plan is bollocks and he's a twat. My issue was with your comment that unqualified teachers couldn't be bothered to train. I can be bothered but circumstances haven't allowed me.

As to your comment about being fuming if your DD was taught by a TA (if you were paying), I understand that it would be better if there were procedures in place to ensure I'm a better teacher, but I can assure you that my school would never have let me do this if I hadn't been observed teaching. They haven't just said "Oh, Lizzids is keen, she can do it". The head of my department has observed me, and I've been on INSET courses in my subject.

My point is that yes, in an ideal world all teachers would be qualified, and you have the right to be concerned about unqualified teachers. However, don't dismiss them entirely out of hand - just like with children you should look at them on a case-by-case basis.

Google 'Teach First'
Also, independent schools have been employing unqualified teachers for ever.