To think before the government lets a load of fat cat property developers and building companies get rich again..............

[froubylou]

....they need to protect the humble subcontractor from the ruthless bastards who delibrately don't pay? Just because they can?

We have a small (tiny really) building company. We only work on building sites and subcontract to bigger companies. Last year we lost 20k through companies not paying us for works done.

It looks as though we are about to loose another 3k just after we had got straight from last time. I'm 30 weeks pg and just can't believe it is happening again.

There is very little we can do. We can take them to the Small Claims Court and get a CCJ which in reality means very little as we will not be the only ones to not get paid. No doubt there is a big chunk of VAT monies that has been spent as well, which means HMRC will beat us to it shutting them down and take anything of any value.

The company they subcontract to won't want to know.

The director (s) of the company that will go bust will re-open in someone else's name if they haven't already done so and carry on as before.

Meanwhile there will be us and 4 other smaller companies that won't be able to pay their bills this month, won't be able to pay their men and this time I'm not fighting it, we will go bust.

6 years we have been trading. Bank won't give us an overdraft despite credit ratings being good. The pots are empty. We put every bit of profit we had made back into the company to keep it going last year.

My DP is broken. He grafts his bollocks off and this keeps happening.

As a small company we are powerless. And yet the government pumps money and incentives into the building industry to stimulate the economy and brags over its achievements.

All it's doing is making it easier for the big companies to get richer and profiteer off the backs of the little man. The working class who want and need to work to support their families. Yet when the system lets them down there is nothing that can be done and no one actually helps you sort out the shite. And some wanker will be sat on my lads wages. Or will spend it on a holiday. Or a new car. Or to patch up some dodgy accounting. The work has been done and paid for. By the Government btw! Its a school we have been working on.

But the people who have done the graft won't see a penny.

Tis fucking wrong. And I've done with it all.

This is not about the government and fat cat property developers. There are plenty of companies like your own that often take moneys from people and then go bust and restart almost immediately under a different name.

It is the limited liability laws that need to change.

My BIL went and threatened to take down a building his small company had built when that company did not pay..they paid.

Yes, something needs to be done to protect people in your situation.

Thats the next step ICame. Work will be taken down. MDs will be spoken to of the main contractor and an almighty fuss will be made. Whether it gets us anywhere remains to be seen. We are relying on the integrity of others now to try and put pressure on the company that owes us monies to be paid.

The problem with the rules relating to limited companies are a problem Madam. There isn't a great deal of incentive to run your company legitimately and honestly when the liability is limited to the company. But the alternative (as I see it) is to have directors personally responsible for any debt that is run up by the company. Which then screws people like us when we get ripped off. Instead of us 'just' loosing a business we loose our home, any savings or anything else we may have. Which would be unfair IMO if we could prove we have acted honestly.

The VAT system and also the CIS system need a massive overhaul. Its a terrible idea to give companies 20% VAT and 20% CIS and expect them to pay it in full and everytime. All it does it put temptation in peoples way. If some directors see 100K in the bank and they know they will have to pay it to HMRC they will be tempted to spend it. They class the monies as 'thiers' and see HMRC as profiting from their company. So they empty the accounts and go bust, taking everyone else down with them.

The government needs to look at how it awards contracts as well. There has been lots of fuss made is the last decade with regards to bribery and corruption and strict rules in place to try and prevent the old 'brown envelope' regime. This has just made the brown envelopes more discreet and still fails to tackle the main issue for contractors like us.

The fact that if you don't get paid there is fuck all you can do about it. So if the taxpayer has paid 2 million pounds for a new school on the proviso that 1) the area gets a new school and 2) that the local economy will benefit from the building works you would think that there would be rules and regs in place to make sure that the money actually gets to the brickies and sparkies and chippies and plasterers that are actually physically building the school.

I would hazzard a guess that most subbies have been ripped off at some point. That they have lost monies and possibly companies and livlihoods because of someone higher up the food chain. That the bigger you are the more you can get away with more.

I've heard of this happening with lots of sub-contractors for public sector contracts. They know they have total impunity. I'd therefore not go near a sub-contract myself. :( I know it doesn't help you, but it is a common problem.

Can you say you need to be paid weekly. That way you'd never be more than a week out of pocket and can stop work if you don't get paid. I can see this has potential problems but if the contractor is intending to pay and this is a well known problem then hopefully they will agree. A friend's husband narrowly escaped bankruptcy due to this kind of shitty behavior from a big building company. Hope you get your money.

Directors should be personally responsible for the conduct of their business and as such I will not employ limited companies. I want some bastard to lose their balls if they try to leg me over when I employ them.

Could you not ask for money upfront?

I hear you froubylou. DP used to work with someone who sub-contracted to a developers, they were almost always held to around £20K and the developers really swung their weight around before finally paying something, but never up to a clean balance. With so many other contractors ready to step in it is a very fine line to walk.

What can you do? Other than taking work down again, like you say, but who really wants to go there? It is ridiculous and I don't envy you. YANBU for thinking this should be improved before any more green lights are given to developers.

Glad DP is out of it now (laid off when new builds stopped in the first crash) and is building his business up on smaller private projects and rennovations. It's very peak and trough, difficult to plan very far ahead (more than 3 months really, who wants to wait that long?) and you still get some who for no reason think they can sit on the money you've earned, but it spreads the risk a bit.

We try and just get weekly pay but by the time you have done your week in hand they have 2 weeks on you anyway.

Madame it would be impossible to get paid in advance. No one would do it and with people snapping at your heels to nick the work you would lose it first. Directors should be responsible but rarely are and set up business's with the sole intention of bankrupting them.

I'd like to see the main contractor or developer personally responsible for making sure every contractor is paid on full. Put that sort of responsibility on the top of the chain and the bottom boys will get paid one way or another.

It will never happen though. And in a year or two as the industry picks up more and more subbys will get ripped off. We already have a skills shortage in the industry. Without family businesses bringing the next generation through or companies to set on trainees the industry will suffer. It's such an important part of the economy you would think it would offer better protection to the grass roots of it all.

Interesting development with Cameron announcing "consultation" on late payments to small businesses:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-24517594

Wonder where this will get us.....