to be beyond livid with my husband's boss and to press him to make a formal complaint?

[YouCantBeSerious]

My husband is somewhat shell-shocked tonight after an incident at work. I've managed to drag the story out of him, bit by bit, and I am utterly horrified at what has gone on.

Basically my husband was working in the lab when he noticed a really unpleasant smell. Turns out the fume cupboard had stopped working so he was breathing in the chemicals rather than them going up the spout. The alarm didn't go off when it stopped working so he didn't know. Turns out it didn't go off because his fucking boss had meddled with it so that only the small light on the side goes off because the beeping annoys him.

So now my husband has to test himself everyday because his boss thinks it only needs doing formally if something shows up. Not like he's trying to cover his arse or anything.

If HCN was being generated you'd have a bleach scrubber set up to minimise any gas being released.

This is making no sense.

I've never heard of 3 years and levels for this and I have a lot of lab experience - is he feeling ill OP that doesn't make any sense to me? hope it all works out. I would encourage him to make a complaint himself - and to ensure he follows all the correct procedures. It won't do him any good if you waltz in, really. He needs to stand up for himself, act professionally and make sure he records this incident and that all safety procedures are fine from now.

In that case, I'd work out the possible exposure and if it's not extremely low, I'd maybe just go to a and e so that it's logged.

I'd be FURIOUS with his boss too. What a dangerous thing to do.

I know nothing about fume cupboards or labs in general - is it not also worrying that the alarm was going off frequently enough to annoy his boss? Or is that normal?

I agree stonetree. I can't imagine a set-up where you'd want to work with radioactive hydrogen cyanide in a fume cupboard without a bleach scrubber. And where are the radioactive substances ending up?

I did wonder that myself Tempus. I must admit though I'm completely out of my depth and some of the comments from other scientists on this thread leave me a bit .

Sounds like a bit of an H&S nightmare all round - I definitely think your DH should get checked out, and then report, as it sounds like a fair few corners are being cut and putting workers at risk. I hope he's ok.

I suspect in this instance that YouCannotBeSerious has mis-used the term radiation, not being a chemist herself.

But then cyanide doesn't bioaccumulate, so that whole post doesn't make sense. It is actually metabolised reasonably well; it is not as toxic as is commonly thought, I can think of many chemicals much more toxic.

If only tiny amounts of HCN were being generated, then just maybe you'd not set up a scrub-not that I'd sign off a risk assessment for such a set up.

But whatever, no-ones boss should be covering up safety blunders, and fiddling with safety equipment is not acceptable. Escalate, escalate. Is he an RSC member? I think they have a policy on whistle blowing.

This is beginning to read like an example case in a Health and Safety training manual, which sounds incredible because you can't believe that anyone would ever be that stupid.

Are you seriously saying that you husband and colleagues have been working with a highly toxic, volatile and radioactive chemical in a malfunctioning fume hood? Really?

The real problem is that the boss dismantled an alarm. And I'm suspect about their procedures if he 'should' have checked the fume hood. Yes he should and there should be some mandatory checklist so this cannot be overlooked.

The boss should be up for dismissal over the alarm, it's as simple as that. It's why the boss is trying to get your DH to help cover his ass.

Put another way, thanks to the boss and his stupidity, and lack of company controls, you could have been posting in bereavement tonight.
Your Dh cannot guarantee that he will not have poor health from this.

Tempus-its normal, especially when the sash is opened wide enough to set up equipment (which is usually before you've got any chemicals in there). There's usually a timed over-ride on the alarm, but it sounds like the boss has fiddled to turn it off completely.

Tbh most chemists tape a bit of tissue to the bottom of the sash, that way you can see the flow. A f/c should not be considered a failsafe, just another piece of safety equipment (like gloves, for eg)

It's a great relief that your husband hasn't been permanently injured - but that makes no difference to the severity of the matter.

1. If the alarm is going off frequently this is a safety issue which must be reported.

1. If any part of the alarm system has been tampered with/disabled this is a safety issue which must be reported.

Under HSE legislation anyone working in the area who is aware of either issue is legally required to report it, even if no-one is actually injured. It must not wait until someone is hurt.

If someone else is injured as a result of these failures, your husband could be charged with partial responsibility for not reporting them. He cannot escape liability by saying someone else decided not to report it. Anyone knowing about the issue but knows it hasn't been reported is also complicit himself.

As a separate issue, his exposure to the cyanide must be reported in the accident book. It is his responsibility as well as the management to ensure this is done.

Whatever is being used in a fume cupboard, an alarm should go off if not working. That is a basic safety requirement. Am also a bit about it being radioactive HCN, was it 14C? Regardless, heads should roll. He needs to log in accident book, email head of department, and head of safety committee. I can't understand how something like this would be possible in an industrial lab, especially in a nuclear industry setting.

Hydrogen cyanide is NOT radioactive as stated by others above.
However it is highly toxic which is why it was used in the Nazi gas chambers.

And notanexcitingname is right about the bit of tissue stuck to the side of the f/c Nothing like a visual reminder that all is well or not.

Tempus It is not normal for the alarm to go off frequently- sometimes they can go off, if for instance a window has been left open and there is a draft. However, if the alarm keeps going off then an engineer needs to be called and the hood shouldn't be used until it has been fixed and thoroughly tested (fume hoods should be regularly serviced/tested in any case).

Fucking hell.

What is he going to do about this?

I'm assuming tritiated vs. 14C, as 3H doesn't need much shielding vs. a beta emitter, although not sure why anyone would want to make radiolabelled HCN anyway. As notan said, when you open and prep a hood it will sound as the air flow is unbalanced. But no-one sane would tamper with that as it is a safety feature. Then not much about the working practices described here sounds sane.

I've just consulted the National Poisons Information Service online site that is used by HCPs. Their advice is unequivocal:

All those exposed to this chemical should be referred for medical assessment.

If this exposure has occurred at work or in a public space consider the implications for others exposed.

Primary responders and secondary carers must consider wearing personal protective equipment (PPE).

Treating clinicians should usually discuss allcases with their local poisons information service:

He needs to go to A&E for full assessment, which is likely to include base-line bloods (usually urea, electrolytes, arterial blood gases and lactate concentrations) and to start the 'evidence chain'.

I think you are supposed to have an available first aider trained to administor oxygen when working cyanide. It is also normal to check the lights before you use the fume cupboard but you can usually hear when it is off.

This thread seems a bit mixed up and makes no sense? am curious about the nature and extent of exposure

there is treatment for cyanide poisoning (usually hydroxycobalamin injections - some people here might be on them already, its a b12 vitamin precursor that binds the ions) but other things eg amyl nitrate, sodium thiosulphate and sodium nitrate can be used and if memory serves me correctly are the treatment in most of the developing world countries as a kit - where cyanide poisoning is more common (because we have less fires, better health and safety, different rules eg about chemicals plastics, chemical weapons use etc)
You do not need a blood transfusion and it is usually not radioactive

either way, if in any doubt get him to a&e, where blood samples can be taken thus documenting the exposure, and treatment started

I sincerely happy that your DH and yourself are doing OK this morning OP. Through all of the insanely clever people and the "shoulda, woulda, coulda" 's your DH has still been put in a position that he should never have been put in.

The most important things are to have him thoroughly checked out by a HCP and a paper trail started. Then to report, whistle blow and ensure this never happens to anyone again. The next person may not be so "fortunate"