To agree with workfare in principal?

[IAmMiranda]

Donning my flame retardant underwear - though note I'm not for the current scheme, but the principal is sensible.

Working for unemployment benefits makes sense to me - provided that the "wage" is fair for the hours and skills. Eg. £90 a week job sellers could equal 15 hours of charity work?

Taking into account disabilities, childcare and other responsibilities I really don't think its unfair to provide people with jobs to earn the equivalent of benefits?

I do think its wrong to line the pockets of corporations, reduce jobs for other workers etc but surely charity work is an option?

I think I've probably missed some huge glaring point but AIBU?

(NOTE: I have previously been in reciept of JSA and would happily have done 15 hours a week and had plenty of time to job search)

I think it's fair to say that anyone should be paid minimum wage, and I think it's fair to say that this shouldn't benefit private businesses, and I think it's fair to say that this shouldn't displace actual job creation. I think the first two are very easy to sort, and the third is the kind of criteria that we're already used to dealing with in terms of hiring foreign labour.

I'm not really amenable to people with 4 or 5 kids saying that it's not really their fault that they can't look after their kids financially, neither am I amenable to someone who's been unemployed for several years saying that they can't do 10 hours of community service in return for their benefits (here I am assuming minimum wage as I don't agree with slave labour).

I support the notion of a safety net, and I want it to continue.

And, I will admit a bit of nodding head with sugarmouse. There's nothing that will guarantee continued poverty like a slew of unplanned kids having various uninvolved, disinterested fathers. Wait until you're 28; choose your partner wisely; do not have more than 2. This is the recipe for a stable existence.

Crowler, I agree, this needs to be encouraged in schools somehow

Also, the negative consequences of having a baby young need to be shown more. In the media there should be more about traumatic births and PND, and how hard it is. Soaps seem to always show teens coping and finding it really easy, not realistic at all, take Lola in eastenders as an example

I would do a 'workfare' placement if it was something which would benefit my long term career plans and fit in around the dc's and my current college course.

I want to work for living and support my family. I can see though that a shop job is not going to pay me enough without benefits so I have gone back to college to try and get into University to train as a midwife. It is a long term goal which I started on 2 years ago. Yes the govt, an society as a whole, are supporting me whilst I study but I feel this is a good investment. Do we really need more shelf-stackers? We do need more midwives and I know I have what it takes to get on the course and finish it.

I will repay back through taxes when I am earning in my career. I will probably still need some benefits as it isn't brilliant money but it is better then shopfloor pay.

Workfare should be tailored to individuals so that they get a more qualified workforce

Stormy I disagree.

People do voluntary work all the time, they don't all go around with this misguided belief that because they aren't being paid minimum wage their work and time is worthless. That's a poor argument.

I wouldn't feel worthless if I'd been given months and years of money from my society, as well as being able to take advantage of all the other things the state offers me no matter how much or how little I'd put in. British citizens are very lucky to have what we do.

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twitpic.com/dfsagj

Above is a "job" ad for a six month stint on workfare as a fry cook for an 18 to 24 year old.
This is a similar one ...Six month stint on workfare as a catering assistant for 18 to 24 yr old.

twitpic.com/dfs5oo

SugarMouse1Wed 02-Oct-13 18:49:13

Darkesteyes- illegal to leave an 11 year old alone?

That's the age they start traveling to secondary school alone and using public transport etc!

Your kids are probably still in nappies and sucking dummies in their teens! LOL

Yes my nonexistent children are doing just that.

Did you look at the link Offred linked into the thread very helpfully for you.

Im willing to bet that if a parent did exactly as you suggested and left an 11 yr old home alone to go to work and something happened like an accident or a fire you and certain others on here would be shaking your heads at the news programme while drinking your tea and crying "fecklessness"

I was left at about nine years old- shrugs

I'm not that old either, it was perfectly acceptable

Debs75, are you on JSA?

I don't think anyone should be stacking shelves as part of workfare.

It's really difficult to look after 4 or 5 children and if everyone only had 1 or 2 that would be below replacement levels and would cause a crisis in pensions and old age care... Like what is happening now.

Are you really saying that after suffering the trauma and indignity of being sexually abused and raped and the difficulty of unexpectedly having twins I should be punished by having my children never have enough food or clothes or heating? That my children and I should be punished for "choosing" an abuser?

This thread is extremely upsetting especially the posts from sugar mouse with their glib winking faces and "LOL"

Back to the point though it sounds like what you are saying is the govt should create more public sector jobs. This is not what workfare is. If you have those conditions on it you don't support workfare in principle.

Broken - you can't compare workfare to voluntary work, don't be ridiculous. People are being asked to give up voluntary work which is valuable to their career to do shelf stacking on workfare.

&Working for benefits .... reminds you that you're utterly worthless to your country unless you're earning and paying taxes

well that is true if you are able bodied and not a carer. you need to be funding yourself and contributing financially for those who cannot work. if you are not, others are working to support themselves and you.

^ and why pretend it is anything other than that?

Offred, I'm sorry for the trauma you've endured. Your situation is obviously what I'm not speaking of.

That being said, rape cannot possibly account for the huge numbers (you say most) of unplanned babies. Also, I wasn't speaking children who are already in existence, just a suggestion to young women (because this is primarily a women's issue) that they wait, choose wisely, and have only two.

one of my oldest friends is the victim of a high profile serial rapist. she hasn't had sex since the attack 10 years ago and I don't think she ever will. she is also completely dysfunctional in terms of relationships. she works in the media and was worried about her experience becoming public knowledge.

soon she will be too old for children and she is in no position to cope with that type of responsibility anyway.

she has spoken to me in very painful terms about not wanting to pay for other peoples children. I know in some ways it may sound trivial but she has very little control of the life despite on paper being very successful. so I think this belief relates to not having control even over paying for other peoples lives/choices.

so she only has had herself since her twenties and I think the rest of her life will be alone. if she does not drink herself to an early grave, whats that 70 years of being single and childless?

if you look at rape being a reason for supporting other people's families, you also have to consider that nothing makes women immune from sex crimes and you need to consider the victims on both sides.

I'm not comparing. I'm disputing the argument that work placements are degrading and dehumanising simply because they are being done at less than minimum wage. But I don't even agree that they are done at less than minimum wage by the time you factor in benefits other than JSA like housing benefit and council tax benefit over a number of months.

I agree with you that people should never be expected to give up voluntary jobs to do work placements, it seems pointless when so many people manage to do a lot of voluntary work on top of full time jobs anyway.

I agree with you that people should never be expected to give up voluntary jobs to do work placements, it seems pointless when so many people manage to do a lot of voluntary work on top of full time jobs anyway.

Why? Am I meant to support someone who chooses to do volunteer work rather than paid work?

Children of rape can't figure into this calculation because they are rare. This would more logically fall under the rubric of victim support.

Why? Am I meant to support someone who chooses to do volunteer work rather than paid work?

Crowler, what sort of work placements would you suggest?

Not wanting to contribute to other people's lives is not the other side. I'm not sure that is even a coherent argument given your whole argument behind supporting workfare seems to be "people should contribute to society" what makes your friend any different? That she is wealthy? Well that portrays the real attitude doesn't it? The wealthy are not expected to contribute and the economy is bleeding money out of the top not the bottom yet it is those right at the bottom who are being punished and exploited - why exactly? Why are we punishing people for being poor and vulnerable and rewarding bad behaviour of the rich?

I agree that people should contribute to society but I think that on the whole most people do in a whole host of ways not all through paid employment. Most people want to contribute and most people want to work because work tends to be the central focus of modern people's lives. This is backed up by research. If you don't have work you become isolated and stigmatised. Fact is though there aren't enough jobs though. Before you even get on to wages.

I'd be very much in favour of the government creating new public sector jobs so that the unemployed actually had a chance of getting work. But equally I think unpaid contributions should be valued. That is not what they propose through workfare. That is not what has happened with workfare. Open your eyes. "I'm not talking about xyz real situation of people with children/on JSA" won't cut it.

I would like all contributions to be recognised. Raising children contributes, caring for the sick and disabled contributes, there's lots that unemployed people do that contributes including spending money. I'm pretty confident for example that in the nearly 9 years I have been out of paid employment I have contributed more to society and to the economy than I did in paid work - £10k salary per year in retail which worked out as less than NMW.

The economy would collapse without all the free work that mainly women do. Workfare and erosion of welfare harms the economy in order to benefit owners who profit from low labour costs. Vast majority of people need state support; healthcare, education, road maintenance, the courts etc. Stats show that people only claim working age benefits when desperate, this makes no economic sense in a capitalist economy which is dependent on consumption. People are becoming increasingly reliant on debt which makes no economic sense.

Evidence shows that universal entitlement is cheaper and better targets those in need. Means testing makes no economic sense. There isn't any "who is going to pay?" because it costs the same or less overall once you add up all the costs.

Children of rape are not rare btw.

1 in 3 young women in abusive relationships.

1 in 4 women across a lifetime.

Both of my best friends and myself have rape babies. Obviously we'd likely be drawn to each other because of that but it is not uncommon.

TotemPole, I'm not making any kind of work placement suggestions. BrokenSunglasses said that people should not be required to give up volunteer work if they're offered a work placement. I disagree.

There's a difference between a child conceived of rape and a child of an abusive relationship. If I tell you I don't know anyone who has a child from rape, you're going to tell me that I have a skewed sample, aren't you? I would suggest the same to you.

what makes your friend any different?

i thought you might have compassion for her. clearly i was wrong. so stepping away from the whole topic....

What is the point in asking a law student to give up their degree and their relevant voluntary work in CAB so they can do a placement in catering or retail. That's what would happen to me.

I worked for years in catering and retail, in pubs and bars, reception, secretary, PA. I have loads of experience of that and don't need anymore.

If they let me continue my law degree, do an LPC and work voluntarily for CAB as I am doing in only a few years I could be working as a junior solicitor and much more likely to repay the investment. Makes no economic sense (unless the aim is to devalue labour) to force me to do catering work placements instead of that or for the woman studying to be a midwife to be kicked off her course and forced out of her relevant voluntary work.