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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To disagree with 3/4 year old children having more childcare paid for

999 replies

ReallyTired · 23/09/2013 10:23

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-24199711

I feel the goverment should pay for education rather than childcare. 15 hours a week is enough to meet a child's educational needs for pre school. At a time of austerity, I feel there are bigger spending priorities. (Providing enough school places for children who are of complusory school age!)

If you choose to have chidlren then you should pay to look after them. I feel that labour's set of proposals are totally unaffordable and making the "banks" pay will damage the UK financial sector long term.

All these election bribes do not help the UK in the long term.

OP posts:
AnnieLobeseder · 24/09/2013 00:02

Fair enough, namechange, I certainly agree with you on the erosion of worker rights (zero hour contract and workfare, anyone?). That's why I said upthread that I'd also like to see flexible hours, no unpaid overtime and people working contracted hours only. But I think the long hours culture is more the fault of greedy shareholders and CEOs than the government (though they are certainly all close friends).

However, the reality is that many people (mostly women) who have invested time and money (often that of the taxpayer) into education and training, often have to let it all go to waste when they can't afford to work. If you think about it, the very words "can't afford to work" are a joke. I had to spend 18 months at home when DD2 was small and my mental health suffered terribly. I'm an awful SAHP.

So I support any way in which women can break free of the trap of not being able to afford to work. BUT, I would be much happier if it were combined with better, far more family-friendly working conditions for everyone.

InspectorGadget · 24/09/2013 00:10

The government places absolutely no value whatsoever in raising your own children. EVERYONE must work. Must be productive. Must pay tax. As a stay at home mum I feel utterly invisible in society. A non person. That utter twat George Osborne even declared being a SAHM to be a lifestyle choice. What the actual fuck? I work, or used to, for a large government department who do not pay me enough to put my two children into child care. And I am fucked if I'm working in a soul destroying job while my kids are looked after by a childminder for zero income and absolutely no benefit to them whatsoever. Lifestyle choice my arse. What a prick.
In my humble opinion my tax free allowance should be added to my husbands because I am unable to work, so that as a family we pay less tax.
So ner.

namechangeforareasonablereason · 24/09/2013 00:17

Yy - I don't like the removal of choice - by all means provide the child care for women to work - but I don't like the idea of children where 1 or both parents can't/don't work - being treated as "lesser" somehow, creating vicious circles and further poverty traps. We were moving away from that.

I find more and more with all of the current political parties, a wish to regimentalise our children. They are develop at different rates and are at different stages.

Employment isn't helped by this - we will have more lower paid workers (mostly women), being forced into more low paid jobs, by target driven beauraucrats.

Same re those with a disability, young people.

Everyone should want to work but at the same time there need to be enough quality jobs around.

NoComet · 24/09/2013 01:22

*The government places absolutely no value whatsoever in raising your own children. EVERYONE must work. Must be productive. Must pay tax. As a stay at home mum I feel utterly invisible in society. A non person.

And I am fucked if I'm working in a soul destroying job while my kids are looked after by a childminder for zero income and absolutely no benefit to them whatsoever. *
^
This with nobs on.

jasminerose · 24/09/2013 06:16

From the governments perspective it benefits them and the working parent to fund this. If they fund sahp the governmenr arent getting any benefit back that is why they are not offering more to sahp. That doesnt mean you cant be one, but what would ghe government get out of funding them?

janey68 · 24/09/2013 06:58

I disagree that we're heading back to a culture where women get barely any maternity leave and it's Normal to work an 80 hour week. Where does the proposal suggest that' maternity rights are being eroded? It's simply not true. Maternity rights have actually increased massively over recent years and indeed parental rights are granted

I completely agree about protecting workers rights in other ways and the biggest deal IMO would be an increase in NMW and abolition of Zero hour contracts. But to criticise plolicy which widens parents' opportunities to work? That's good

What is very clear is that there are some women who want to stay at home with their children whatever. They want to stay at home even if their partner is the lower earner and even if childcare is subsidised, and they have a partner who is happy to be the sole earner. Which is fine. But they cannot expect social policy to reflect this choice. Partly because of the financial reasons described above: it simply is not cost effective: why should the govt reward people financially for something they would choose to do whatever, and which has no financial advantage to the govt? Of course there is a huge value in raising well adjusted children- but the point is, that's to do with good parenting, not whether the parents work or not. If there were overwhelming evidence that children of WOHP were more likely to be feckless drains on public funds then I'm under no illusions: the govt with its eye on finances as ever, would chase parents women back into the home. However, that's not the case. The govt knows (as we perhaps all do deep down) that caring responsible parents (WOH or SAH) raise well adjusted children, and equally uncaring, neglectful or abusive parents ( WOH or SAH) cause problems for their children

And apart from the financial reasons, why should the govt support one particular model (because its overwhelming the woman who stops work) over and above recognising that this is the 21st century and women and men aren't constrained by social and educational expectations as used to be the case. Many fathers don't want the expectation of being sole earner, always being expected to push ahead with their career no matter what pressure that creates or how much it prevents them having a share of the hands on stuff with the kids. And let's face it, many posters are very quick to tell us that they have to stay home to facilitate their husbands high pressure long hours job. Well that's fine if as a couple you've chosen those roles. But don't extrapolate from that, that couples all over the country want to replicate that ... Many couples these days both want balance, which isn't that surprising: we only get one shot at life so surely it's quite normal to want to experience the delights of being a parent, running a home and having a work life too? It doesn't have to be all or nothing

Like I say, if you are absolutely determined that you want to stop work and not use childcare at all, I can quite see that this policy isn't of personal interest to you- just as they aren't personably relevant to childless adults, or indeed to people like me whose children are much older. But it's so resentful to not want others to benefit from something just because you won't choose it or use or yourself. This proposal broadens choice. It doesn't force people to use it. It doesn't tell SAHP they are worthless or scum or any of these other choice epithets (it's SAHP themselves who sometimes label themselves like this.) I think being a SAHP is a valid choice if you feel it's right for your family (or to be specific, if both partners feel its right) But that doesn't mean it's a better choice or that society should place some intrinsic value on it: society should value all good parents

Scruffyhound · 24/09/2013 07:00

I have always worked but I am now in a situation where im -£300 per month. I have had well paid jobs in the past 25K upwards. Now because I cant find those jobs locally and Im limited to travel because of dropping DS 1 (7yrs)& 2 (2.5 yrs) off Im in a job which pays 11,200 school term. I have a house that I have to rent at a loss because selling it would be negative equity. I moved in with DP as his work paid more and is a family buisness. So for the minimum wage people abd

childcare bill of £900 it would help a lot. I want to stay in work but I have had to take a loan out to keep my job. Im always looking for better paid jobs and hope to have a few interviews lined up. I do think before and after school care is another issue that needs to be sorted out. For people saying have children only if you can afford them. Well I did but then circumstances change sometimes life changes things that you thought would not happen have. I do think money needs putting into childcare, before/afterschool & schools in general.

ChildrensStoriesNet · 24/09/2013 07:21

Aren't we past the age of Sound Bite politics yet?

Of course child care is very important, what gets me is the absence of common sense and forward thinking in government over decades, which is why we are where we are today.

Do I trust Labour, no way, do I trust the Cons, no, both seem to be fighting to "be in charge" next time, neither can really see beyond that, which is partly why we are in such a mess.

janey68 · 24/09/2013 07:28

Absolutely: party politics are a joke in the UK. But I'm not going to knock a decent idea when it comes along.

Weemee · 24/09/2013 07:40

The thing is Janey for many this proposal has no impact upon choice- it will have no impact because people cannot access it. Ime the local nursery session times are not useful to someone who works and even if they were what would we do in the holidays? Harder to find childcare for a toddler 12 weeks a year than for a school age child! Need to continue with a private nursery, as now. We do get some 'partnership funding' for which I am grateful, I appreciate any help, but it doesn't' even cover 20% of a days fees. Can only claim in sessions. Would be helpful if each parent was simply allocated the funding to use on childcare as they need to. I have heard that the gov't would not be able to fund the current provision if everyone entitled tried to take it up so dunno how they could fund increased hours?

There needs to be a bit of joined up thinking here and sadly that won't happen because in the vast majority of cases, those making the decisions don't have to use the service and they're too busy trying to get one up on the opposition.

perfectstorm · 24/09/2013 07:42

Oh fgs, why must this be a war between SAHP and working outside ones?

Looking after kids - your own or someone else's - is work. Working for pay while your children are cared for (by other women, also being paid...) is work. Both have value. WOTH parents deserve tax breaks in recognition that they're raising the next generation, and childcare is a very expensive cost against their lives. SAHP deserve tax breaks in recognition that they're raising the next generation, and sacrificing a wage is a very expensive cost against their lives.

I cannot fathom why people aren't embarrassed by selfishly squealing that their own choices on how to juggle children and work are the only ones the rest of society should have to subsidise. Why aren't we arguing that whatever arrangements a family make, children are eyewateringly expensive and bringing them up well has social worth, and therefore tax recognition of that fact would be helpful - whatever the arrangements? Why so concerned that only your own choices deserve support? So much for sisterhood.

janey68 · 24/09/2013 07:44

Oh I agree with you Weemee that there could be better ways of implementing it. But it's certainly a step in the right direction

janey68 · 24/09/2013 07:48

Perfectstorm- that's what I said: bringing up children well has enormous social worth. Not simply having children per se. I am all for recognition (though not remuneration) of good parenting ... But that's a separate issue from whether mum, dad, neither or both, work.

woodlandwanderwoman · 24/09/2013 08:01

Annie - your original point about this turning into an unnecessary bum fight between sahp and working mums was a good one.

Then you went straight on to undermine yourself by trashing sahp for having an opinion on something you would get for free and somebody else pays for just because you didn't enjoy being a sahp yourself Hmm

Can I make a point... SAHP are NOT trying to say that working parents don't deserve this!!!!

So why are working parents so bloody bothered about SAHP????? This policy would give working parents what they want and there is nothing in the policy that suggests that extending it to sahp would threaten that. As you'll see from my last posts I personally don't think it needs to be extended as long as the 15h is universal.

There's a lot to be said for when you get something you want, say nothing! Working parents should all be nodding their head and yelping in agreement at this, not childishly (in many cases not all) turning it into a completely irrelevant competition between two groups of people who each have a little of what the other wants.

As I said before, we should respect each other and stick together to achieve what is in the best interests of all our children. I think this policy is a good one whether it is extended to sahp or not.

(And frankly I have probably paid more tax in the last ten years than the average person will in a lifetime so I don't feel that my opinion as a sahp is irrelevant just because I haven't paid tax for the last six months since I left work).

AmandaRGranger · 24/09/2013 08:04

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anaotchan · 24/09/2013 08:04

I'm fairly new to mumsnet and hadn't realized there was such bitterness between SAHP and working parents.

tbh I don't see how this proposal is any of the SAHP's concern, as it doesn't affect them in any way. It would be a scarily selfish/individualistic society if everyone started begrudging every single penny of help-that-others-get-but-we-don't.

also, it's not just a case of one 'personal choice' being rewarded over the other. I can only speak for myself here, but my education and training cost the taxpayer an eye-watering amount of money over the years (even though my job doesn't even pay that well, lol). If I can't send my children to reasonably-priced childcare and have to look after them myself, I'm pretty much destroying any chance of having a career in my field, and thereby wasting all the public money that was invested in me. So keeping my job is not just about "my personal lifestyle choice", it's also about not wasting years and years of public funding.

anaotchan · 24/09/2013 08:12

(sorry, just to be clear: I'd be very happy to see SAHP getting more help too, I didn't mean to say they don't deserve it in my post)

ihategeorgeosborne · 24/09/2013 08:12

anaotchan, SAHMs don't want help with child care. What they find particularly galling, is that after having their child benefit, when working couples on nearly twice their income keep theirs, all other policies are centred around working parents. CB was originally intended to be paid to all in recognition that the costs of bringing up children are more than the costs of not. Now, SAHPs lose CB, while working parents don't, working parents are getting even more help in the form of childcare too. It just seems that the government are happy to stoke the coffers of one type of parent, but want to strip and humiliate those who choose another Hmm

ihategeorgeosborne · 24/09/2013 08:13

sorry that should say afet having their child benefit removed

ihategeorgeosborne · 24/09/2013 08:14

after even Grin

janey68 · 24/09/2013 08:20

There will never be agreement on this because SAHP parents who feel aggrieved are not comparing themself with another parent: they are comparing themself with 2 parents who are both working and have all the additional costs incurred.

anaotchan · 24/09/2013 08:22

I can understand that, ihategeorgeosborne. So it's not that SAHP think working parents deserve less, it's that they think they should also get similar benefits. (sorry it's a long thread and I'm being a bit slow on the uptake, lol)

Bonsoir · 24/09/2013 08:24

If the government were honest and upfront about its shocking childcare model (admittedly not of its own primary design) and truthful that any subsidies are not designed to help parents but rather to promote the growth of the childcare industry, which is good for GDP, there would be less mud-slinging.

ihategeorgeosborne · 24/09/2013 08:28

anaotchan, I don't expect to get money for childcare, why would I, I don't work. I don't expect to have CB removed though, when families earning nearly twice my income keep theirs, particularly since it has always been a universal benefit that actually works and helps with the cost of looking after growing children, which is what it was intended for originally. It was never a childcare subsidy.

Bonsoir · 24/09/2013 08:30

The reworked CB is a disaster and wildly unfair. If the government wants to help two-earner families, this was not the way to do it.

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