to ask WHY in the name of Gove are teachers striking again?

[loftyclopflop]

DD's school is closing on 1st October because they have chosen to strike. Is it over pay, pensions and conditions? Did they achieve anything by striking a couple of years ago other than massively inconveniencing a lot of parents?

I know Gove is a twat but do they really expect to change anything by taking the day off?

Aris. i have read your previous posts. I know before you came in to teaching
you were in a well paid carear in the private sector. I am aware you choose teaching, for reasons that benefitted your lifestyle choices.

You must also beware that many though think that they could just walk
out of teaching and walk straight in to a 50-60k pa job.

you also are aware unlike some teachers, who went straight in to teaching from University how totally different the private sector is not
least, politcally from the public sector.

I think many posters on this site would be astonished how the Daily Mail
type ideas are mainstream within the private sector.

I am not saying that there are not highly qualified people who would not
earn more in the private sector, but many teachers would be eaten alive
in the private sector. You probably know which one's at your school would be.

I don't know of any teachers who think they can walk into a 50/60 k job.

DH could. He left one to become a teacher and earn £25k-odd a year. But he was very unfulfilled in his largely stress-free job and wanted to 'make a difference'

I can see that a lot of teachers don't understand the private sector, but I do think many are just reacting to being told their job is cushy. And there are all manners of jobs out there and teaching will be more favourable than some, and worse than others.

My job's better than DH's. We earn roughly the same, have broadly the same pension and I didn't need a degree to do it.

Aris. One of my close friends is a Head of a primary school, another is
a senior French/German teacher at a comprehensive in Bolton another is
head of politics at a well regarded 6th form college in the northwest.

I can assure you i am in no way anti teaching and i hear all about
the idiot ideas of gove regularly but i have also heard some of my friends
colleagues say some truly delusional things about the private sector.

Some of them really think they could be the boss of a public limited
Company i am not joking. I have heard one History teacher tell me
if he was allowed on the London stock market for an hour"He make a million" he was not having a laugh.

Soul2000 I hate the "many teachers would be eaten alive in the private sector". Rubbish. I am the only teacher (public sector worker) out of my siblings and many friends. My dsis (private sector earning over 100k) admitted to me she doesnt understand why she gets paid what she does. There is no way she could do my job (earning less than 24k btw) and nor could my other friends in the private sector.

3 good friends of mine have just left teaching (primary, music secondary, re secondary) all gone into private sector, all much much happier.

Can someone please define exactly what is meant by a job in "the private sector?" Surely that's a hugely broad array of jobs, for which there can be no generalising as to terms and conditions?

I agree, worked for a well know retailer starting out as a buyer .

I wonder what the real average salary is in the private sector and what
the average pension pot of the average private sector worker is?

I suggest that it is far less than the offical average of 26k pa.

I also suggest that the average worker in the private sector has no private pension at all, on the count of not earning enough money to even put £30 a week a way.

Therefore teachers need to understand their pension benefits although
they have changed and are less rewarding, are like gold dust when
compared to most people in the private sector.

I will not support anyone who is wiling to use my child as a weapon.

I dont pay into the teachers pension (DH does) cant afford it.

Good - you don't support Gove either then Grumpy.

As he's the one refusing to, you know, discuss this like adults?

It's not a race to the bottom. Good on them for doing something for their families and our children.

I have to admit.

I don't get it.

The argument for striking seems to be:

1. Gove is a twat
2. Teachers work LONG hours and great pressure
3. Teacher's pensions are being eroded.

Let's take 1) for a moment. I grant you that Gove isn't the most politically correct of politicians but show me an education minister that teachers haven't complained about? It seems to me that regardless of government, the teacher's will always hate the education minister.

So what's next? 2)? So teachers want to be paid well above the national average, get one of the best pensions in the country, generous holidays AND work normal hours without pressure? Personally I'm not sure that's realistic! I tend to find the more you get paid, the more your employer expects one way or another.

Which leaves 3) Yep your pension's are no longer as generous as they were. Join the club. Name one industry which hasn't seen significant pension changes? I can understand why teachers think this is unfair but at the end of the day the fact is that their pension scheme is unaffordable and whilst noone wants to pay more and get less back, it's a reality facing all of us. The price for us all for having a greater life expectancy.

To be blunt the world has changed. Our pensions were designed back in the day when people generally died before they hit pensionable age. I read that when the state pension was introduced there was one pensioner for every ten workers. Now it's more like one in three. It's simple maths that this is unsustainable.

I think many people are going to have to accept that demanding job they're doing now probably won't be the job they're doing when they're older....much older. We're going to have to give up this fanciful notion of a job for life and get used to the idea of doing the jobs that suit us. And for many that will be a painful adjustment.

1 Estelle Morris
2 Teachers are not always paid well above the national average wage, some are. I think teachers need to work to reduce their working hours by refining their practice and sometimes adjusting their expectations. We need to make sure that teaching is an attractive package so that the brightest and ther best apply.

1. Same point as above, teachers need to be offered a good package so we get he brightest and the best rather than those who can't get a better job.

I think you may have a point about not expecting to do the same job for life.

The big issue is Gove's refusal to discuss, it is as if he wants us to go on strike so parents feel angry with us rather than the government

One of the reasons that public sector wages seem higher than private sector ones is that many of the lower laid jobs in the public sector are fulfilled by the private sector - kitchen staff, cleaners etc. There is probably a high sector of professions drawing a wage in the public sector.

Teachers are not always paid well above the national average wage, some are.

According to a report by the OECD our teachers are the 6th best paid in the world and "....start their careers with higher than average salaries."

In that context I think many of us find it hard to support strike action for terms & conditions that we could never reasonably expect to get.

Current starting wage for a teacher outside of London is just short of 22K. That is not huge average busting wage for a professional. Top of mainscale pay for teachers is just over 31k - again not a sky high wage , particularly if you want to stay in the classroom rather than go into management - apart from threshold there is not much more to earn and that is under review .

I think the main problem with teachers pay is that it stagnates at around ten years , something the article you linked to acknowledged. According to that article after a decade teachers in the Uk am earn less than 1/2 of teachers in Luxembourg .

Do you want teachers to be paid less than the average wage? I would like to see them paid more and to reflect this the entrance requirements raised.

Someone will be along in a minute, arisbottle to say why a talented but academically duff mate of theirs would be/is a top teacher.

I see no reason why entry qualifications should not be raised, as well as the pay. There is no necessary opposition between being academically able and being a good teacher, and it might go some way to sorting out the less-than literate.

No-one ever queries the high entry requirements for being a doctor by making a similar comparison. Come to think of it they do, in a way, as the entry for the medicos courses in Melbourne go to those who score highest in the UMAT tests for empathy.

The teacher's pension fund IS affordable! We have recently had a review which demonstrated this but upped our contributions anyway.
I have to say, the actual effect of this thread is to make me reconsider my position and it looks like I will now be out on strike. There is support out there for us, and to those who don't support us civilly explaining the issues doesn't seem to have any impact.

I don't think teachers are striking because they work long hours. Possibly because they work long hours doing stuff like constantly rewriting schemes of work because Gove fancies fiddling with the curriculum every year.

The teacher's pension fund IS affordable!

Only if you conveniently ignore the fact that calculation is based upon the employer (the government) is paying the lion share of the fund. A government I might add that has absolutely no cash and is even after years of cuts is still busy borrowing an obscene amount of money every year.

Right now teacher's pay in about pay 6-7% of their salaries and employers pay 14.1%. In the private sector that sort of pension scheme would be generally considered unaffordable.

I totally support the idea of good pay for good teachers. But as the pay increases, the public expect more for their money. Our kids expect a decent future. And right now we're spending their money on unaffordable schemes that they've had no vote on.