to think the idea of a mansion tax just penalises London and the south

[Redpipe]

I will probably get flamed for saying this but I don't believe that owning a 2 million pound house automatically makes you rich. Certainly in London a 2 million will not buy you a mansion, more like a terraced family home.

AIBU to think that the idea just penalises people in the south?

[BrokenSunglasses]

I agree with you OP, it does penalise those who live in the south, and it punishes people, for something they had no control over.

This is just turning into a bash the wealthy thread, and it's being aimed at people who might not actually be all that wealthy.

If pensioners are going to be forced to move because house prices have risen and their incomes don't match, then why should a pensioner in a council property get to keep their home until they die? I know plenty of people on MN don't agree that they should, I'm not one of them. But this mansion tax could easily end up with people who have contributed less being better off than those who have contributed little. We already have that situation to an extent, and the last thing we should be doing is making that worse.

It would be much fairer if this tax were based on the value of a property relative to the value of the average property in the area. That way it would catch people who really do live in mansions in cheap areas up north, and wouldn't penalise those who live in bog standard properties that just happen to be in areas where prices have dramatically risen.

[MrsCampbellBlack]

I'm not attacking the wealthy. I've lost my child benefit but know in the scheme of things, we can afford that. And that you know people tend to have less sympathy for the well off having to make a few sacrifices than those who are struggling to feed and clothe themselves.

And I fail to believe that someone couldn't find somewhere reasonable to live for £1m even in nice bits of London.

[Binkybix]

I get taxed which means I can't live where I want either - without the bonus of unearned increases in property making me £100s k through. Oh, and the fact that your theoretical pensioner could still live in the area he wanted, but in a smaller place. What's so awful about only having one bedroom for 1 person?

[SomethingOnce]

these people are being asked to fund others at the cost of forcing them to leave their own homes.

It's 'fund others' or make a different choice.

(Tbh, I prefer 'fund others' to 'fuck others' but I'm not a Tory so I would say that )

[Binkybix]

And I've not got anything against the wealthy - just think that tax needs to come from somewhere!

[HalooJones]

Taxing expensive houses is a very good idea as you can't move them overseas.

[Redpipe]

somethingonce and Mrscampbellblack

I am fairly certain you can't see passed the property price so I'll leave it there as there is absolutely no point debating.

[LalaLeona]

..and where is your empathy OP? For the rest of the country's young (and middle aged!) people wo can never ever get onto the "property ladder"?

[Chocolatehunter]

Redpipe where is your empathy for the families who have been dragged around the country because there are no jobs and they have to move to get any sort of income? Or are we reserving sympathy solely for a rich pensioner who lives in London. This is the problem, it's all outrage when it comes to London but when IDS says that working class people ought to get on the bus for work ticket to the mythical land of jobs please then that's seen as justified. I'm sorry for your neighbour but he has more than enough equity in his house to be able to live a very comfortable and stable life somewhere else, unlike those who are on the bones of their backside because they cant get jobs.

[Redpipe]

lalaleona

Actual I have loads of empathy for the people who can't get on the property ladder what leads you to believe I don't? How bizarre?

[Redpipe]

chocolatehunter

Please point me to where I have shown no empathy and the debate about people who have been dragged around the country because there are no jobs? Why are you putting words in my mouth?

[MajesticWhine]

Extra taxes have to be raised somehow due to the terrible state of this country's finances. I agree it seems unfair for those on low income in high value properties. But no taxes are going to be popular. OP, what alternatives would you suggest for raising tax and tackling the deficit?

[Redpipe]

two wrongs don't make a right Chocolate, I can find empathy for all parties

[Jolleigh]

IMO (which may of course be ill-informed) if you can afford to effectively sit on £2m, regardless of whether you bought the house for that price, then yes, you are rich. If you live in a £2m house and are really struggling financially then you're a rich person who isn't yet making the right choices.

About the tax penalising Londoners, I'd rather have a single rule for the whole country than add yet another division between the north and south.

I don't live in London because I can't afford to.

[Redpipe]

Majestic
Good point.
Hmm, I would probably start with hard line on corporate tax evasion rather than making pensioners move home.

[SomethingOnce]

I can see perfectly well past it.

Property has taken over from savings. Property values have risen, savings rates barely keep up with inflation. Were savings rates decent, one could expect to be taxed on the interest - I don't see a huge difference.

[Redpipe]

Jolleigh

The prices have really only gone absolutely crazy in the last 6 years. Some of these people were 80 years old then, not exactly the age to say "right have you seen the price of our property now, lets move." at say 86!!

[PurpleGirly]

Red pipe you appear to live in a bubble - so many people have to downsize to afford to live and pay the taxes they have. Your OAP is no different - he just has to pay more tax as he has a house worth a lot of money. That is how it works. It's all very well for you to state other people don't get it, or cannot see beyond the property price - it is all relative. Have you spoken at length to your neighbour - he may be fit and healthy now but can he cope in a big house, is he lonely, will he be warm in winter? Surely common sense would lead family to helping him make a decision to keep him safe, warm and financially secure?

[MrsCampbellBlack]

I can see past the property prices - of course I can. But times are tough, a lot of people are having to make decisions now that they didn't envisage having to make.

What's going to happen to our generation when they want to retire and pensions just aren't going to cut it? There will be an awful lof of downsizing going on then.

And yes, it is sad if someone had no intention of moving has to because he can't afford the 'mansion tax'. But either he has to move, do some dodgy equity release scheme or get subsidised by his family.

But at least he has decent assets and therefore has more options than many people.

[SomethingOnce]

I'll bet a few people who live in £2m+ homes work for the very same corporate tax avoiders.

This could be regarded as a two-pronged approach.

[BrokenSunglasses]

Binky, I agree that tax needs to come from somewhere, but there are better ways of doing it.

It would be better to have a higher rate of VAT on luxury items (I mean properly luxury items like windows with self closing curtains or designer shoes, not Jaffa cakes) because then you would actually be taxing people relative to their disposable income.

[Redpipe]

He loves living on the street. He has known some of his neighbours for 40 odd years. Yes he can cope in the house (which is not that big). He is not fit and healthy (lost an eye in the war and has a limp) which is why he likes living here as neighbours muck in with shopping etc. No, he's not lonely, mainly because he knows so many people locally and can stop and chat on the street and yes he's warm in winter.

I understand people downsize for all sorts of reasons. I don't live in a bubble. He also pays tax like all other pensioners and as a working class man saved and made decisions when he retired 20 years ago as to his affairs. This tax could dramatically change his life.

[Redpipe]

MrsCampbellblack

Just because he has more options doesn't mean we can't feel sorry for him?

[Quangle]

I'll put my hand up as someone this could affect one day. My three bed terrace cost£750k and is now worth probably double that four years on (it was derelict when I bought it). It's only about 1200 sq ft so pretty ordinary as houses go. No garden to speak of. I've been in this area for twenty years, grew up in London, all family within twenty minutes of us. Children all at local state schools. Job only available in London so moving out really not an option for us.

I read that at current rates of house price inflation we could fall into this tax bracket in five years. £36k in additional tax every year would be almost all my income so we'd have to move but where? Everyone in my street would have to move but if we all moved to the next borough along those house prices would get pushed up the way ours have been pushed up by international buyers and we'd be back to square one.

It is a bit of a worry. Not expecting sympathy! I know I'm lucky to own a home in London but it comes to something when owning an ordinary house in your home town, close to family and the children's school, is almost impossible for so many people and will become so for me if this goes ahead.

[SeaSickSal]

Other taxes disproportionately target the poor in the north, e.g. VAT, as we are paid less so it is a greater proportion of our income.