to think the idea of a mansion tax just penalises London and the south

[Redpipe]

I will probably get flamed for saying this but I don't believe that owning a 2 million pound house automatically makes you rich. Certainly in London a 2 million will not buy you a mansion, more like a terraced family home.

AIBU to think that the idea just penalises people in the south?

[BrownSauceSandwich]

Doesn't mean you're rich. What a load of shit. At the extremes, you might have a person with a £2M mortgage, who must be pretty fucking rich to be able to pay it, or you might have a person with £2M equity in their property, a small proportion of which, in the case of your elderly neighbour, could be freed up to pay the tax, if necessary. That's rich by most people's standards.

Tell me, have those people who bought houses in the south and London done any more, worked any harder to "earn" these ridiculous windfalls than people who bought similarly priced homes 50 years ago in the north? No? So why not tax them more heavily on their gains? They're still winning overall.

[rallytog1]

Many in the South East have sat on huge increases in the value of their property which they have neither earned nor worked for. Through this, they've been able to release capital for home improvements, move up the housing ladder more easily, buy investment properties and much more.

Why shouldn't they be expected to share some of that un-earned wealth back into the economy that made the huge price increases possible?

[ubername]

Sell a chunk of equity in your property and use it to pay the tax. This will also have the benefit of reducing the equity of the home you live in (to you / your estate) so that you can rejoice in the same feeling as those lucky northern so and so's who enviably don't own extremely valuable assets.

[Redpipe]

I totally agree with Cowler and VOR

Having thought about this thread and all the arguments I think the main problem is that the mansion tax is not a 'mansion' tax at all. It is really an extra income tax making assumptions of a persons yearly income and overall wealth based upon the price of their property.

If it was a mansion tax it would be added to stamp duty or inheritance tax and applied when sold or bought.

A property valuation bears no straight line correlation to yearly income and unfairly discriminates against the south east.

Yes, people can sell their homes and move much further afield and live a richer life but is this right? London is already becoming drained of it's mix of residents. Do we want it to be for the super rich only. These people pushed out of London would just move to the M25 corridor and would then that area would become unaffordable for most and push those already commuting even further out.

Fundamentally it is wrong to assumes someones wealth based solely on the price of the property they live in.

[Sleepwhenidie]

Sorry - to clarify, I agree on the average employed person point, not necessarily on your second. There could well be many like VOR who may be perfectly able to afford to pay this tax but resent it to such a degree/regard it as the veritable straw that they do indeed move and take their business elsewhere, leaving behind a redundant workforce and huge gap in fiscal revenue .

[Sleepwhenidie]

I agree Crowler.

[Crowler]

I don't think that the average employed person who feels the pinch of this tax will have the option to move out of London.

Perhaps VOR is a member of the more super-elite class that moves easily among global financial capitals. But I don't think these people will really be bothered by this tax, frankly.

[Sleepwhenidie]

Inmysparetime - I think you are missing the point about why people like VOR would be leaving the country, it wouldn't be just to avoid paying a mansion tax but because they disagree with the way taxation is working. It's all very well to say well 'you can afford it' or 'the rich should pay more'...they can and do pay more but, like it or not, everyone has a point, somewhere, at which they feel enough is enough with regard to taxation.

[VEBott]

Widows in the south could be forced to move by this measure. At 80+ that sort of stress and upheaval can be a death sentence. Seems a bit unfair to set the bar so low. £5million would be more reasonable. £2million is just a terraced house with a scrap of garden in central London.

[merrymouse]

Actually raisin did suggest other ways to increase tax revenue from rich people - just ones that might be more efficient.

[InMySpareTime]

Why would those on super high incomes move out of the UK when they won't even countenance moving oop North?
If such as "Voiceofraisin" have an international client base, they would most easily avoid the mansion tax by moving within the UK.
No need to skip country.

[merrymouse]

Do you mean non doms or non residents?

[Crowler]

I think the problem is that non-doms get no press. They're stealth.

[Beastofburden]

Instead, get rid of non-dom tax breaks, and introduce higher bands of council tax with an increased rate for empty properties.

what VOR says. definitely.

[Crowler]

VoiceofRaisin is... the voice of reason.

[VoiceofRaisin]

icebeing but there won't be a job vacancy Our business would come with us. We have an international client base and we would simply move the whole business.

It is tempting to squeeze the rich but measures to do so often do not raise any more tax for the government (like the 50% income tax rate resulted in a fall in revenue) which is why they are more about envy than raising funds. It's sad that people are so easily lured into jumping on the bandwagon of supporting a tax for those that are better off than they are without thinking through why.

Those on high incomes already pay a very very large amount in tax. The highest earning 1% provide nearly 1/3 of all Government income. You can't afford to lose them lightly.

The mansion tax is an envy tax.

Instead, get rid of non-dom tax breaks, and introduce higher bands of council tax with an increased rate for empty properties. This would put everyone on a level and help keep housing in use especially in central London where much of it stands empty for most of the year.

[Sleepwhenidie]

Ice - even if that were true it would still mean the PAYE and employment of others would be lost wouldn't it

I don't think anyone can seriously argue that owning a £2m house doesn't make you rich by any normal standard - but in London, it certainly doesn't mean you have loads of cash. That discussion aside - in answer to the main question posed by the OP, yes the mansion tax will penalise people living in the SE unfairly. By all means tax rich people more, but it should be done on a fairer basis than just picking on the ones that happen to own an expensive house in London, rather than all the others that own assets elsewhere.

[IceBeing]

oh and they will probably be happy to find the new tax as their salary just increased by a factor of 100.

[IceBeing]

voice "but for everyone like me who leaves, the exchequer will be £0.5m pa worse off and a couple of ordinary jobs (staff we employ) will be lost to the country. Isn't that rather counterproductive if the government is trying to raise revenue ?"

I am sure if you leave then someone currently working the same hours you do for 1% of the pay will leap at the chance to fill your shoes....

[Beastofburden]

the weird, weird basements full of private gyms and cinemas....

[ubik]

Dp and I moved out of London 10 years ago as we saw the writing on the wall and knew we couldn't afford to live there and raise family, live in a nice area, walk to work, work part time etc

My mother's side of the family have always lived in south London: Peckham, Camberwell, Bromley. My great grandfather grew up in a Georgian terrace in Camberwell they were all working class, lower mc background.

I cannot believe how much London has changed in the last decade. SO much money floating around the south east. The clean streets, the bikes, horrid new buildings.

[mewmeow]

Yabu.
Owning a two million £ house.. doesn't make you rich?! :s ... Is this a joke?
What does then?

[Quangle]

yep Kentish Town now crawling with French people! DM lives in a block there and when she moved in it was pretty mixed. Now she's virtually the only non-French person there.

[Corkyandviolet]

This one is in a desirable location, and no mansion tax at all

[Crowler]

A new lycee in Kentish Town, I didn't know!

Today I saw an article that seems to confirm it's 1% on the value of the house exceeding 2M, so it's pretty softly-softly on the just-2M houses (2K per year). It works out to be a double council-tax bill, sort of.

I remain in disagreement.