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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

AIBU to think a vicar accused of sexual assault shouldn't be visiting schools?

147 replies

AnnieLobeseder · 15/09/2013 00:48

I've just read our school newsletter, and it says that the local vicar, who hasn't been visiting in a while because of a disciplinary injunction, will be coming back at some point soon. I knew nothing about this so Googled him, and it turns out this "injunction" was a charge of sexual assault by a local teen, and that while he hasn't admitted guilt on that, he did admit to failing to follow child protection policy.

I'm absolutely gobsmacked that the school think it's okay to have him working with children.

I'm very much opposed to visits by religious people anyway, but this really has me raging.

I've written to the school telling then I don't want this man anywhere near my children.

Of course there is the possibility that he's innocent. But why take the risk? Surely it's no huge detriment to his career if he doesn't visit schools anymore?

OP posts:
larrygrylls · 15/09/2013 12:16

SMH,

3-8% is not insignificant. It means that if there are 10,000 accusations per annum (for example), between 300 and 800 people are falsely accused.

In any event, I hate the language "knock this false accusation thing where it belongs". What you are demanding is a witch hunt where to be accused is the same as being guilty. Do you not believe in "innocent until proved guilty"?

Realistically, I cannot believe the school will not have taken the situation into account and will not put appropriate safeguarding into place. They would risk being complicit, otherwise. And I really cannot imagine a situation where a child would be forced to be alone with a visiting vicar. So, OP, really, what are you worried about?

Viviennemary · 15/09/2013 12:16

I think you should ask for the title of the thread to be changed.

Loa · 15/09/2013 12:24

I cannot believe the school will not have taken the situation into account and will not put appropriate safeguarding into place. They would risk being complicit, otherwise.

I'd expect that as well - but I would also expect that the school would be willing to reassure me that they had without going into details.

General reassure they are aware of the issue and have appropriate procedures in place that will be followed. Reassurance they they do know about accusations and that that they won't claim they were unaware at a later date or actually are unaware.

larrygrylls · 15/09/2013 12:29

Loa,

I imagine it is a very sensitive situation. If the school started relaying whatever extra measures they were putting in place to parents, they would be effectively passing on the accusations to those who did not know of them, and also effectively giving them credence. They may then be at risk of libel/slander accusations (and maybe rightly so).

I suspect if asked, they would be happy to give a generic reassurance, though, something like "we take account of all issues surrounding adults in our school and put appropriate safeguarding measures in place".

intitgrand · 15/09/2013 12:30

All these statistics about the false accusation ratio are a complete nonsense.How can it possibly be measured?how do you know how many genuine rapes are unreported? , how do you know how many allegations are malicious?
You don't.
62.8 % of statistics are made up on the spot Wink

AgentZigzag · 15/09/2013 12:41

Realistically I know there are predators, and their genuine victims are often vulnerable for various reasons and therefore powerless against a usually 'pillar of the community' person in authority. I don't believe there are many people who make these things up, but then people confess to crimes they couldn't possibly have committed, so it is possible.

With le vell, there was a side of me that thought he wasn't proven to be innocent of anything, but I couldn't help also thinking that's so unfair to the man, that he's entitled to as much protection as his accuser.

It comes down to the fact that you either have to believe the courts get as close to the truth of the matter as possible (a system built up over so many thousands of years), or you think they never get it right, and I don't want to live like that.

I probably didn't think through get across what I actually meant by adults not being alone with children when it's their job. Maybe more that adults should be tasked with keeping an eye on each other, and a system where they can speak out easily if there are worrying things going on.

Like Vanessa George in the nursery or Shipman in Hyde, they were able to engineer time on their own and weren't accountable to anyone. If someone's not towing the line and being cagey about following those rules then there should be people there to notice.

If I was forced to choose one situation over another I'd prefer accusations to be believed and an adult have to deal with them, than vulnerable people/children automatically dismissed as liars and fantasists, as they were in the past, and then returned to their abusive life.

AgentZigzag · 15/09/2013 12:43

I meant believed so the accusations can be tested in court, not believed wholesale just because someone's said it.

Sokmonsta · 15/09/2013 12:47

MrsTP. I'm sure that figure would be vastly different if the number of assaults not reported were included. As we can't possibly have that figure to work with, the only assumption that should be made is innocent until proven guilty. In this case I am making an assumption that a not guilty verdict was made in a court of law. Perhaps op could clarify whether this was the case or not.

AgentZigzag · 15/09/2013 12:51

Intit, I would say the number was arrived at after comparing numbers of crimes reported to the police to numbers of people answering anonymous questionnaires saying they'd been sexually assaulted but not reported it.

It's never going to be accurate, but if the numbers are significant either way they shouldn't be ignored.

Rinoachicken · 15/09/2013 12:51

from the OP it sounds like it didn't even MAKE it to court, which means the police found no evidence/grounds to back up the accusation.

But wod be good to get clarification.

Police only refer cases to the courts where they believe there is sufficient evidence to secure a conviction. If they haven't done so that says quite a bit.

Original poster
AnnieLobeseder · 15/09/2013 12:59

Thanks for the input everyone. The range of responses is about what I expected. I asked local mums what they think and they all think he's fantastic and can't wait to have him back in the school.

I would probably withdraw my children from a vicar's visit on religious grounds no matter who it was, so will do so anyway. We're not Christian and I hate the fact that a) religious state schools exist and b) I have no choice but to send my children to one.

OP posts:
SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 15/09/2013 13:05

The range of responses is about what I expected.

Same here, Annie, and is indicative of how Jimmy Saville/Catholic priests etc etc got away with their crimes for so long. Society doesn't believe the victim.

fishandmonkey · 15/09/2013 13:12

not only that society doesn't believe the victim, but some people still don't realise how rare it is for sexual assault or rape cases to make it to court and that is not because of the high rate of false accusations but because there are problems with the way such crimes are investigated.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 15/09/2013 13:14

Yy, fish.

burberryqueen · 15/09/2013 13:15

Police only refer cases to the courts where they believe there is sufficient evidence to secure a conviction. If they haven't done so that says quite a bit
and one person's word against another would not be enough evidence - that is what this often means, not that the police believe him to be innocent.

AgentZigzag · 15/09/2013 13:15

It's not that 'society' doesn't believe the victim Sabrina, if it didn't there'd never be any prosecutions.

Testing something which is subjectively experienced with objective, often inflexible, rules, is never going to be effective.

It has to be a hopeful sign that things have progressed so much in only a generation, you wouldn't want it to progress any quicker because that's when it starts fucking up.

Loa · 15/09/2013 13:18

Police only refer cases to the courts where they believe there is sufficient evidence to secure a conviction. If they haven't done so that says quite a bit.

No CPS - crown prosecution service decide if cases will be taken to court not police. Police present them with the evidence they have uncovered and CPS decided whether to proceed to court.

A very low number of reported rapes get to court - for a variety of reasons. It's often it because of the he /said she said situation and if the accusing party is a less than desirable witness - learning disability or metal illness or something can mean they don't proceed. It can mean they think will the low conviction rate with sexual cases they don't stand much chance of conviction and with limited resource go for other cases not that a crime hasn't happened.

Obviously it's perfectly possible nothing happened and allegation was pure malicious on a caring individual.

I'd be worried in this situation as AnnieLobeseder looking for reassurance from school and to minimize risk to my DC - I wouldn't be grabbing my pitch fork or whipping up a lynch mob.

burberryqueen · 15/09/2013 13:24

yes i know but the police do not even pass stuff on to the CPS if it is a case of one persons word against another cos they know CPS will not take it on.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 15/09/2013 13:25

I sincerely hope you're right that things are progressing Agent. But, I end up wanting to bang my head against a wall when things like the Le Vell trial bring all the "anonymity for those accused of rape" campaigners out of the woodwork, and I hear of trials being abandoned because defence barristers have shouted "you're lying" at a child over and over in a court room until the child becomes hysterical and is unable to give evidence.

On the anonymity thing: it is indeed very difficult to get a case to court on the strength of one person's word against another. However, naming those accused is very important in bringing forward other victims of serial offenders - and corroboration is one thing that will get a case to court.

Morgause · 15/09/2013 13:25

yes i know but the police do not even pass stuff on to the CPS if it is a case of one persons word against another cos they know CPS will not take it on.

They did just that in a very recent court case.

burberryqueen · 15/09/2013 13:29

ok well i had a letter from them regarding threatening behaviour sstating exactly that it could not be passed on to the CPS as it was my word against someone else's. so there ya go.

AgentZigzag · 15/09/2013 13:34

There are a lot of situations where there have been blatant indicators something's not right beforehand, and it's proved to be them up to no good afterwards (like Shipman/Peter Connelly) but people have understandably brushed it off as an overreaction.

It's maybe understandable then that if one of those indicators (that we know could suggest something more) is attached to someone, that people make the connection and wrongly assume they're guilty. Same as a lot of offenders having MH problems but having a MH problem doesn't mean you're more likely to be an offender, when in reality they're more likely to be a victim.

AgentZigzag · 15/09/2013 13:35

Last post was to Loa saying 'I'd be worried in this situation as AnnieLobeseder looking for reassurance from school and to minimize risk to my DC - I wouldn't be grabbing my pitch fork or whipping up a lynch mob.'

SlowlorisIncognito · 15/09/2013 13:36

In a case like this, it is very likely to be the teen's word against the vicar. If there's been no previous accusations, this wouldn't be enough evidence to take it to court. As the accusation was sexual assault, it's very possible there is no medical evidence either. Sexual assault in these sorts of cases is very, very difficult to prove, and only a small proportion of cases make it to court, as there is other evidence (e.g. multiple accusations, other witnesses, CCTV footage, medical evidence etc).

It would not be unreasonable of you to go to the school and ask how they intend to make sure children are kept safe, even if you intend to withdraw your child anyway.

SoupDragon · 15/09/2013 13:39

So he was accused, the case was dropped due to lack of evidence and you want him to be treated as if he were guilty?