Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To worry about the Judges attitude in Levelle Verdict.

305 replies

daiseehope · 10/09/2013 15:24

I believe I need to state that this man has been found not guilty of all charges etc. I am an abuse victim who is taking a case to court. AIBU as apparently the Judge stated to the Jury prior to deciding that the sic "manner and appearance of the alleged victim and how she appears to you is vital". I don't think that's right.Hmm Hmm

OP posts:
PramQueen1971 · 10/09/2013 17:21

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

noddyholder · 10/09/2013 17:22

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

squoosh · 10/09/2013 17:22

Bye bye PramQueen.

Chotter · 10/09/2013 17:23

'anyone who is accused of rape is therefore guilty, according to many mumsnet posters'

That's the FWR board you're looking for Grin

FlapJackFlossie · 10/09/2013 17:23

And, HavantGuard as I said, trial by MNers follows. Stop nit picking - he has been found NOT GUILTY !

I didn't mention 'false allegation' in any way shape or form.

WafflyVersatile · 10/09/2013 17:25

And a guilty one doesn't mean they did do it, it means they have been proved to have done it beyond reasonable doubt in the eyes of law. People's own private opinions on either side can differ from what the court concludes.

Pointing out that there is no 'proved innocent' isn't the same as saying you think he did it.

limitedperiodonly · 10/09/2013 17:27

I don't think that I could say the same for myself if I was in court for something I hadn't done. I'd be discrediting like mad

marmalade I'd always think the same of myself until I was in a nasty work situation. I know you only have my word to go on, but honestly, I was the injured party Smile

I had a deal with my union rep that she would kick me if I went too far during a number of meetings that were deliberately confrontational.

In one three-hour meeting she only kicked me once - and then it was only a mild kick. More a nudge, than anything else.

I've never been so proud of myself in my life. So don't underestimate your ability for grace under fire.

TidyDancer · 10/09/2013 17:28

I believe MLV is innocent. I also believe the girl is largely innocent. I don't necessarily think she believed everything she said, but I suspect she was in a difficult position and was maybe led to think things were true.

I'm not explaining this well, but honestly I think MLV and the victim are actually both victims in this and ultimately, there really are no winners.

HavantGuard · 10/09/2013 17:28

It's not 'nit picking' or 'trial by MNers' to point out that a not guilty verdict does not automatically mean that the accuser was lying. That is a very dangerous belief that makes it more difficult to get rape convictions. If people believe that cases where the defendant is found not guilty are therefore cases of false allegations it makes them less likely to believe victims and gives them a totally skewed picture of the number of false allegations.

TattiePants · 10/09/2013 17:29

PramQUeen I hope no one even tries to respond to your posts as you clearly are beyond reasoning with.

Many years ago my mum was part of the jury on a rape trial. She thoroughly believed that a rape had taken place but there wasn't sufficient evidence to prove beyond reasonable doubt. As said previously, being 90% certain isn't enough in our judicial system. It certainly didn't mean that the man was innocent or that the woman was a madam or should be shot, just that it was one persons word against the other whether the sex had been consentual.

ANormalOne · 10/09/2013 17:30

There are miscarriages of justice, people are found guilty of crimes they didn't commit and people are found not guilty of crimes they did commit. Just because the jury found him innocent, does not mean he didn't do it. It's that simple.

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 10/09/2013 17:30

He has been found Not Guilty, the evidence was not sufficient to convince the jury beyond reasonable doubt. None of us were in the courtroom so we cannot really comment on the correctness or otherwise of the verdict. However, everyone I know who has been on a jury (including myself) have taken it very seriously and have really tried to get to the correct verdict based on the evidence in front of them. I assume the jury did the same in this case.

stemstitch · 10/09/2013 17:31

In English law, the burden is on the prosecution to prove the charge beyond reasonable doubt. This is a very high bar, as well it should be as someone's freedom is on the line. Being found not guilty does not = the victim is lying. It just means the case could not be proven beyond reasonable doubt. In a case like this, where the crime was committed some years before, there are obvious problems with physical evidence.

The person who made the allegation would only (possibly) be open to prosecution for a false allegation if there was considerable evidence that s/he had purposely fabricated the entire thing, e.g. emails outlining the plan.

Anyone who says that a not guilty verdict alone automatically means the victim must be lying is labouring under a severe misapprehension of the burden of proof in criminal trials and the English legal system in general.

stemstitch · 10/09/2013 17:31

In English law, the burden is on the prosecution to prove the charge beyond reasonable doubt. This is a very high bar, as well it should be as someone's freedom is on the line. Being found not guilty does not = the victim is lying. It just means the case could not be proven beyond reasonable doubt. In a case like this, where the crime was committed some years before, there are obvious problems with physical evidence.

The person who made the allegation would only (possibly) be open to prosecution for a false allegation if there was considerable evidence that s/he had purposely fabricated the entire thing, e.g. emails outlining the plan.

Anyone who says that a not guilty verdict alone automatically means the victim must be lying is labouring under a severe misapprehension of the burden of proof in criminal trials and the English legal system in general.

PramQueen1971 · 10/09/2013 17:33

I have asked mumsnet to remove my message. Apologies for inflammatory post.

limitedperiodonly · 10/09/2013 17:33

...especially the feminists, who are obsessed with rape

Oh God, yes, I'm obsessed with rape.

Oh, oh, oooooh

FlapJackFlossie · 10/09/2013 17:33

HavantGuard - it's the best system we've come up with for hundreds of years. If you don't like it, or believe in it, then go to Uni and do something about it. Good luck with that.

TSSDNCOP · 10/09/2013 17:35

Well lets hope he's saved plenty if money, no way he's going back on telly again if the comments on here are anything to go by.

OP, is your solicitor/barrister doing any pre-trial prep with you? I know t's down to you on the day, but I can't believe they'd send you to give evidence without briefing you.

HavantGuard · 10/09/2013 17:35

I have no idea of the 'correctness' of the verdict. I have no idea if there was a crime committed. I have a fair belief that the jury followed the law. I am stunned by the people posting unpleasant things about the girl as though the verdict is somehow a verdict on her veracity. If every juror was 90% sure he was innocent, the verdict would be not guilty. If every juror was 90% sure he was guilty, the verdict would be not guilty. The verdict is not a statement that the girl was lying.

friday16 · 10/09/2013 17:36

"I'm not explaining this well, but honestly I think MLV and the victim are actually both victims in this and ultimately, there really are no winners."

This.

None of us were in court. We don't know what happened. In cases like this, the reporting is subject to a lot of restrictions, so none of us can know what evidence was adduced or how convincing it was, and therefore can't have a meaningful opinion of the jury's verdict. In which case, the obvious conclusion is that the verdict was sensible, in the absence of any reasonable evidence otherwise.

Crucial material, such as how much contact was known to have occurred between the alleged victim and the alleged perpetrator, presumably would identify the alleged victim and therefore cannot be reported. But clearly, before you can sexually assault someone, you need to be in the same postcode as them, and I don't think the evidence of that, whatever it might have been, was reported.

If an adult had had regular unsupervised access to a child, and there was evidence of that, and there wasn't an obvious reason for the contact, then the jury might have had more to think about if it was claimed that the adult used that time to abuse the child. But if there wasn't evidence of them actually spending time together, the issue of what they did while they were together might not even arise, and hence the jury would not spend very long deliberating.

zatyaballerina · 10/09/2013 17:39

You're innocent until proven guilty under the law so yes he's innocent. The problem here is bringing cases to court where there is no way that it can be proven or unproven due to the fact that there is zero evidence, the whole case is based on he said, she said.

Anyone can make any claim about another person and unless it's recent enough for there to be times and dates allowing the accused to prove they have an alibi, provide witnesses or actual physical evidence, how on earth can an innocent person disprove a claim?

This doesn't work for the accused who has these claims hanging over their head for life even when found not guilty, it doesn't work for the accuser who is assumed to be a liar when a not guilty verdict comes in, it doesn't work for rape victims in general when yet another case comes in as not guilty casting further doubt in the public mind of the truthfulness of victims and it's dangerous to risk sending falsely accused innocent people to prison because their accuser was a convincing liar.

Nobody's fate should hang in the balance due to the word and only the word of one person. This should never have gone to court.

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 10/09/2013 17:41

I understand why everyone is pointing out that a not guilty verdict is not the same as the victim lying and that is correct, the verdict does also depend on "provability". Some of the spiteful comments towards the complainant are utterly unacceptable.

However, he has been found not guilty so in the eyes of the law he is an innocent man and it bothers me that people are suggesting that he may still have committed the crime. It hasn't been proved and so it is inappropriate to keep suggesting he might have done it.

HavantGuard · 10/09/2013 17:42

It's one of my degrees Grin. The problem in this case is not the system but people, through ignorance and prejudice, misunderstanding the system.

Not guilty does not automatically mean a false allegation. The law is balanced in favour of the defendant and the degree of proof required is such that it is very hard to meet in a case of rape. Not guilty means that the prosecution failed to convince the jury to the required degree. No more, no less.

HavantGuard · 10/09/2013 17:43

'Nobody's fate should hang in the balance due to the word and only the word of one person'

So that's most rape cases ruled out then.

wannaBe · 10/09/2013 17:44

so guilty equals guilty and not guilty equals not innocent? bullshit. The law in this country expressly states "innocent until proven guilty." He has not been proven guilty - in fact he has been found not guilty. He is therefore innocent.

You can't just decide that he is still guilty because you want to believe that he is - in the same way that you can't assume that someone is innocent even if they are found guilty.

As for the alleged victim, perhaps she believes it happened, perhaps it was someone else, or perhaps she made it up - I guess we will never know.

If it were my partner or son or male relative I would want the alleged victim prosecuted for false accusations, who wouldn't?