AIBU to go and ask travellers to behave?

[3MenAndMe]

This may be longish..........
So they've descended onto our playfield,neighbouring with my house yesterday,I couldn't believe my eyes when I saw loads of caravans 7.30 in the morning and I didn't hear a thing(the main gate is next to my house,window open and was waking few times to my 10 week old)..

The police and thr council was there at 10am and said that they are at the process of removing them,however they are still here.Personally, I have nothing against them,their lives must be really hard....
BUT......

• I can't take my LO for a walk in the pram(it feels really intimidating
  

-I can't walk my dogs without a lead anymore(they have couple of small dogs who chased mine yesterday,I have the feeling they are not vaccinated etc.)
-My older boys usedto play there with their mates,riding bikes and I just feel it is not safe anymore

BUT THE WORST is the noise (music in the car till 5am),constant souting,lack of respect towards residents,shitting everywhere and coming to my house at 9 pm asking for flipping lighter (or just checking who is in the house).

Sorry for the rant,I'm a bit sleep deprived and it makes my PND worse...

[Birdsgottafly]

"What good is anyone's culture or identity if it doesn't fit in with the way society in general is run? There are plenty of communities who have different cultural expectations to the mainstream populace but they have to adapt and compromise to an extent or they will not survive in the modern world."

That is how holocausts happen, Native Americans (my family background), Aborigines, spring to mind.

Who gets to say how society is run, in reality and we should question why people have to adapt and whether they should, when it comes to some issues. As i said at the beginning of the thread, who decided that all the land, rivers and lakes should be owned by someone and how?

Who gets to keep their identity above others and who decides this?

"The authorities bend over backwards to make sure these people can access healthcare and education"

No, they merely provide, via the tax system and the money made from the stripping of natural resources, around the world and slave level wages etc what is any citizens right.

[duchessandscruffy]

So birds, when a group of travellers turned up at your local recreation ground and played blaring music and intimidated anyone who might have wanted to use the park and then left an unholy mess behind, including human excrement, did you just shrug your shoulders and think, 'oh well, that's just how they live so it's totally acceptable'?

[ThingsThatMakeYouGoHmmmmmmmmm]

"No, they merely provide, via the tax system and the money made from the stripping of natural resources, around the world and slave level wages etc what is any citizens right."

What utter, utter bollocks, Birds.....

[saintlyjimjams]

I sort of agree with you birds but I think the problem in this sort of case is that a group has moved in, will make a considerable nuisance of themselves without any consideration of those around them then leave, leaving behind more mess & destruction.

If you were talking about the local authority that is trying to year down the hobbit house (think that's what it's called - I'll try to link) I'd agree with you.

[saintlyjimjams]

Hobbit house www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/hobbit-house-global-support-grows-5692848

[Birdsgottafly]

"What utter, utter bollocks, Birds."

So how did every section of land come to be owned?

How did the very rich amass their wealth?

Why are people in countries whose natural resources we treasure and rely on become so poor?

The country that we have today with it's laws didn't happen accident, there has been a purpose behind every by law and it hasn't been to benefit any minority groups, such as travellers. Even the outlawing of hunting with dogs and poaching, then the release of myxomatosis, was an attack on some people's way of life.

[BloodyReallyMadmMolar]

Travellers cause problems,average site clean up operations cost the local councils £30+k ,thats our money not the travellers!!
Thats painful and hurtful experience talking too

[TheSporkforeatingkyriarchy]

Birds - great posts

duchess - your question presumes that those are features of at least one particular traveler culture or a generic traveler culture [which doesn't exist] rather than people being assholes. It ignores that assholes can be found in any group, that there are several cultural groups who are commonly labelled travellers with each have a different culture (and the "new age travellers" who appropriate a pick and mix of habits), some of which don't even have travelling as a part of it (like the Roma people, whose history of travelling is part of their history of oppression rather than a part of their culture which is why most in the UK are now settled but are still have a separate cultural identity and history).

Sub - the 'good' of a culture, even a minority one, is a sense of identity, belonging, a part of history and something larger. Hence why Brits abroad maintain their cultures even when it doesn't fit in with everyone else around them. History has shown that assimilation, particularly by force, has never brought about the peace and goodwill the people who call for it seem to think it will. Read anything written by someone who has gone through it, discuss it, it causes nothing but broken people. We still live in a world where cultural genocide is common, where people's children are taken off of them and their cultural items taken away (except when used for the entertainment of those in power) and the heritage of it scars generations. Stripping people of their culture won't fix the underlying problem - see the people after boarding school, see the painful experiences now of people and their descendants left adrift afterwards. We need equal application of the law as well as understanding, celebrating, representation of, and facilitating the differences. No culture should be designated as superior, no culture out of bounds for the law. The OP needs to be able to call to help with the anti-social behaviour and have it work, the travellers involved with that behaviour need dealt with and those not involved with that behaviour need more appropriate facilities.

And many settled people arrange for the council to pick up bulky rubbish for a fee, I have some out right now awaiting it. And yes I do know people under the traveller label that do charity, pay tax, and so on - I have a friend who now has a great job, pays lots of tax, does charity work and is going onto her second master's degree, still gets treated like crap, always gets pulled aside for a lot of questioning by border agencies when she travels and even at top of her class she was denied onto a PHD courses as well as teaching because people "from her background" weren't suitable. She couldn't take off her culture even if she wanted to, other people never seem to be able to forget it either.

[hermioneweasley]

I think this is different t native people's (native Americans, aborigines etc) being displaced and over taken by colonials. Britain has been settled going back to the bronze age - travellers weren't the indigenous people who were driven out by new comers within written history.

I agree with others asking why those who are messy and damage where they stay are not prosecuted for damage. I accept that not all traveller communities do this, but those that do should be charged the costs.

[neunundneunzigluftballons]

Travellers are indigenous people this may have escaped your notice but up until 2 generations ago Ireland, the travellers original homeland, was owned by the UK and they have been travelling between the countries for a long, long time. That and the majority of English 'Irish Travellers' were actually born in the UK and so are British citizens.

[ShiftyFades]

I had a post deleted
Not sure why though, was relaying some very recent experiences of travellers. Certainly didn't think anything was offensive.... Can't even remember what I wrote tbh.... But I can remember the damage to the local field near my home and the nappies thrown into the car park at my work last year. Those experiences are hard to forget

[Coffeenowplease]

Apparently if its a cultural thing you can behave like a wanker and no one can say anything.

I has similar comments when I mentioned how disgustingly women are treated in certain countries. Yeah thats right. Oppression of women being cultural makes it ok.

I just want to know why they arent charged for the damage like any other person would be. Simple enough question.

[TellMeWhatYouWant]

Nothing 'cultured' about shitting in a recreation ground and expecting someone else to clear it up.

[BlingBang]

Don't have much experience of this though did have some travellers this week in a patch nearby and they moved on quick, I hardly noticed TBH.

Wonder if it's because both sides are so entrenched and distrust each other so much. People seem to expect this behaviour from them and are against them from the start, isn't really conducive to both sides acting respectfully to each other.

[TheSporkforeatingkyriarchy]

There are also Scottish traveller communities who were pushed off of their lands centuries ago during English colonization, and Romani people have been here since at least pre-1500s after fleeing enslavement in Eastern Europe (the slur G*sy originates in Old English specifically for them) and there are frequent accounts of their being pushed off of their lands. And regardless, cultural genocide is harmful, imperialistic, and of the mind that ones culture is somehow innately superior which will never bring goodwill.

Coffee - No one has said anything of people being getting away with anything due to culture here, in fact it has been brought up that equal under the law for such behaviour is important for goodwill. But branding several communities under one brush of anti-social and oppressive is ridiculous.

Many people within traveller communities do face large fines and charges for what they do, it's harder to collect money from those who have very little take, but they have a higher rate of being jailed for their actions. The idea that people from traveller communities get away with everything has little basis.

[Coffeenowplease]

Pretty sure someone did actually.

duchessandscruffy Sun 01-Sep-13 14:26:01
So birds, when a group of travellers turned up at your local recreation ground and played blaring music and intimidated anyone who might have wanted to use the park and then left an unholy mess behind, including human excrement, did you just shrug your shoulders and think, 'oh well, that's just how they live so it's totally acceptable'?

I was responding to that. Im not saying anyone here thinks xy and z is ok because its your culture but it does seem to be the attitude of a lot of people when discussing this type of thing.

[SilverApples]

I agree with TheSpork, there have been several high profile cases involving the traveller communities that have ended in jail sentences; James Gray and his family were jailed and fined for cruelty to horses, last year's prosecutions of travellers keeping slaves and running slave gangs. Prosecutions for affray and stabbings have also occurred.

[candycoatedwaterdrops]

While I do not condone the behaviour of some travellers, I think people forget that there are settled people who behave as abysmally.

[SilverApples]

Agreed candy, I was pointing out that the general belief that traveller communities are above the law is not true. It's just a question of proof and witnesses, which can be hard to get in many criminal cases in the settled communities too.

[LittleEsme]

I'm a little bemused as to why my thread was zapped?

I didnt make any sweeping generalisations as such. I categorically stated that a "few dirty bastards trashed the free portaloos
provided by the local council and instead chose to leave their turds strategically placed on top of the large boulders surrounding the site".

I categorically didn't make a sweeping generalisation by accusing them ALL of dumping. But certainly a 'few' of them were involved on account of the sheer volume of turds left on the stones innit.

[SilverApples]

You mean a post Esme?
I had one zapped as well, and I have been trying to relate only first-hand experiences and stay away from generalisations. But obviously I failed in that particular post, and I can't remember what I said.
It happens.

[trice]

About 10 feet from our back fence a family pulled up with a caravan and set up camp. It was next to a busy footpath/bridal way which is used by dog walkers, joggers and cyclists.

The amount of abuse shouted at the family and the swearing was amazing. Groups of teens on bikes appeared with the sole object of getting into a confrontation with the "traveller" family. Perfectly normal looking joggers yelled at them to fuck off and die as they jogged past. Old ladies tutted and rang the council. The level of hatred and vitriol was amazing. The police visited them daily until they moved. It looked like a hell of a way to live.

[SubliminalMassaging]

Many people within traveller communities do face large fines and charges for what they do

it's harder to collect money from those who have very little take Hahahahaaaa

but they have a higher rate of being jailed for their actions. The idea that people from traveller communities get away with everything has little basis.

Can you offer any evidence for this? Where did you get this piece of information? I agree that Travellers have a much higher rate of being jailed in general terms than members of the settled population, but are you saying that Travellers are more likely to be jailed for non-payment of taxes, debts or fines than settled people? Because you'll get another hollow laugh from me on that score.

Or are you talking about being 'jailed for their actions' encompassing all forms of crime? Again I'd have to question whether they are more likely to be jailed 'for their actions' than your average settled person or whether they are just more likely to get involved in actions that lead to jail. There is a distinct difference.

[comingalongnicely]

OK, let's agree that somewhere out there are traveller families that don't lay waste to all they touch & cause an unholy nuisance to other people.

They're nice & we don't have a problem with them.

The rest should be pursued with the full weight of the law, moved on to a locked, temporary site & made to come back & tidy as community service. When they've done that, they're then free to roam the land, free as birds once more....

It's social responsibility - you don't trash other peoples areas and then fuck off.....