To think that this woman is damaging Islam

[ReallyTired]

I feel the judge is being reasonable. The woman is facing a very serious charge and if found guilty will be sent to jail.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-23814711

Making sure that justice is not perverted is more important than religious rights. Asking someone to show their face in court to make sure that the right person is in the dock is vital. I feel the jury needs to be able to see her body language and facial expressions. Body and facial language can give a liar away quite easily and shows how the person is truely feeling.

It would be interesting to know how Sharia law would handle such a situation. What advice would islamic scholars suggest? I feel a better compromise would be for the woman to wear a hijab in court.

I feel that the woman should be punished for contempt of court.

It is a guide line not a law and it is people in court in the case you linked to. If it was a law then it would have been past by parliament and it could not be changed and the judge would know that.

I had to check again just to be sure Fakebook judge has adjourned it, she hasn't even entered a plea yet.

Anonymity is only allowed when there are serious reasons, being shielded from the defendant if you're a child/victim of violence, or completely if say it's for reasons of national security. But this is neither.

I'm probably reading too much into that short article, but could the judge think she's doing it for reasons other than her faith, that she's just doing it trying to sidestep what she's accused of? Or is he talking about something more fundamental about how justice plays out? Dunno.

So actually according to sharia she could/should remove the veil?

Ok I stand corrected based on that I personally think as others have said the judge is just making a mountain out of a mole hill. Yes see her face privately identity her and get on with the case. He must have known this story would have been picked up by the tabloids makes for juicy gossip. I feel like anything about islam is highlighted as freak behaviour that is not acceptable in the uk. Hence I don't keep up with it and only heard about it on mumsnet today. its always negative stories. I feel sorry for any muslim women who may get abuse from ignorant folks in the streets because of the publicity.

*identify

Yes in Islamic courts she can and if asked should remove it. I don't know what scholars say regarding courts in non Islamic courts I think they would say she should what alternative is there if its the law?

What damages Islam and Muslims is that the bad behaviour of any single Muslim is held against Muslims as a whole (by some, anyway).

I am sorely tempted the next time I read a story about a man being in court, to start a thread on here saying "this man is damaging the reputation of men".

Or maybe I could do one if a mother is in court.

Or someone who works in a shop

Or someone who is a professional.

It is a shame the media has seized upon this, as they are so fond of doing.

Niqab can be removed if there is a valid need to do so, this would fall under that category, so no big story there.

She's entitled not to like it and enquire about alternatives, but the judge's decision is final.

^^what you won't see written in any DM-style article about this.

In which case yanbu op

Actually sorry yanbu op to think she should remove the veil. Yabu about the "damages islam" statement.

I don't see why the judge should see any woman's face privately and then go into court for the case.

If a police person behaves badly then it brings the reputation of the police into question and the same for a lot of other groups of people, then the media pick up on it and will run with a story. The same thing has happened here.

But surely its not just the Judge that has to see her face, but witnesses to. Now when I had to go to court the person I was giving evidence about was in the Dock, but I was still asked 'do you see the man who in court and I had to identify him to the court.

We don't know anything about this case but clearly at some point this woman was identified as the suspect, if the person who was intimidated saw her face, or a photograph of her face then they need to be able to identify her.

Personally If she is going to plead not guilty then I would have thought that showing her face to prove it wasn't her would have been one way of doing that but as I say we don not know the specifics, in a court of Law
a Judge is not only representing the Law, he is the Law.

I think he should jail her for contempt, and every time she refuses, jail her again

Those are interesting quotes above about the veil.

This one is a little different..

The "religious" argument does not hold. Islam does not "demand" face coverage, even if some Muslims do. Over the years we have heard from hundreds of imams and scholars on this subject. In 2009 Sheikh Muhammed Sayyid Tantawi, the grand Sheikh of al-Azhar University, Sunni Islam's highest institution of religious learning, scolded a Cairo high school girl for wearing a face-veil: "The niqab is a tradition," he said. "It has no connection to religion."

Sallying - where's the quote from?

I do remember Tantawi's remarks sparked huge debate.

In short, to some Muslims, wearing niqab is a religious act, despite that whenever you discuss it, you'll get smartarses saying otherwise.

Also a bit concerned by the clamour by some to have her jailed. It is rather expensive to imprison someone, you know.

Gorilla It was an article about a similar case in Canada. Link below.

Like all articles it gives one side of the argument. I used only its attributed quote, since much of the rest was just the writer's opinion and therefore no more valid than anyone else's.

There are 'smartarses' on both sides you know!

Yes to suggest jailing is foolish. I believe the judge has acted sensibly, following the law as we all must do, but giving due respect to the defendant's beliefs. I hope she will respond in a like manner.

www.aina.org/news/2011121092913.htm

Does the validity of your adopted and professed religious views depend on how many other people around the globe also adopt and profess it? If I invent a religion, adopt a behaviour and profess it intrinsic to the free practice of my religion, is it not just as valid as any other one?

If many millions/billions? of female muslims don't cover their identity, are they adopting a different religion or is it not intrinsic to Islam?

When does the common good override certain behaviours?

No answers, but lots of questions.

Didn't mean to sound glib. Genuinely wonder about this.

does refusing to show your identity to a man but permitting to show your identity to a woman cause offence to men?

I don't think you can say that she is damaging Islam, or even people's perceptions of it. I doubt there are a lot of people out there who will say, "Well, I used to think Islam was a fine and reasonable religion, but as a result of this woman's actions, I'm beginning to have my doubts."

does refusing to show your identity to a man but permitting to show your identity to a woman cause offence to men?

does showing your identity to a man cause offence to men?

no, not damaging Islam, just making a fool of herself.

the judge needs to see her at every court session to make sure he is talking to whom he thinks she is talking to. The jury need to see her face when she testifies to get a real feel for whether she is telling the truth.

And 'mumsday''s interesting posts make it clear that Islam does not stop her doing that.

law does over-ride religion. Don't like it? Live somewhere else. Plenty of Islamic-law countries to choose.

Yes she should take off her veil. It doesn't damage Islam but it definitely damages its image.

sally - but you don't ask whether it offends the woman

It's not the paper's fault. Don't shoot the messenger. Things happen, they get reported. It's quite good for it to get attention - now lots of people know that "religious requirement" isn't a justified reason for face-covering. These things need clearing up. People are really scared to say things or ask for things because of the fear of being called racist of prejudiced. It's definitely a talking point. It's going to be established now that actually one doesn't have to pussy foot around and be oversensitive, in this situation at least.

does showing your identity to a person cause offence to person?