to be shocked at the poor quality of graduates

[tredaswe]

At work we are recruiting for a graduate trainee position and we have been swamped with applications. I've been doing the sift and the standard of applications is absolutely woeful. At least half of them have spelling and/or punctuation errors in, many of the cover letters are so general you get the impression that they are sending them to every job they are applying for and there are even some that are applying to different companies than us.

From the initial 79 that we received only 6 don't have at least one or more of these flaws. AIBU to think that with youth unemployment people should be putting far more effort into their applications.

I don't have enough experience to know if that's true in some places or not. It does seem daft to me how many people go to university.

But I do also think people chuck around phrases like 'barely literate'. None of the students I've seen have been barely literate, though some of them certainly had errors in SPAG that they should really have learned, so yes, I don't think being a graduate is always going to be proof someone has perfect SPAG, let alone that they can always tailor a cover letter perfectly (which I think takes more skill/experience than the OP might be acknowledging).

I dunno, maybe I'm defensive or overly hopeful about graduates.

Cross post. I wouldn't say the comma is correct, but I guess you could say the 'in' is incorrect, it's the same thing really.

I agree it's fine to be casual on MN. I also think it's fine to have the odd typo, in all honesty. Of course it's going to get you penalized on job apps, but it shouldn't result in OTT claims about poor quality of graduates.

As someone said upthread, this isn't a new complaint - I bet if we could ask our great-grandfathers they'd have been moaning darkly about it too.

Oh yes very true sadly. It is not helped by the huge tuition fees so students feel the pressure to do well & will resort to cheating to achieve the required grades. The problem becomes apparent when they get a job & their lack knowledge/grammar becomes v obvious.

We are a very prestigious organisation, Limited, and this is what attracts a high calibre of applicants. Unfortunately most of the applicants appear to be under the illusion that the job will be more than just admin, even though this is spelled out in the job ad, and I spell it out again at interview. Maybe because of the supposed "prestige", people without degrees don't apply? I don't know. I have pointed this out to HR, but they have neither the time, nor the inclination to find out why, either. As we have no difficulty filling jobs, they probably aren't that bothered.

We recently advertised for an admin assistant. Duties included general office work: photocopying, drafting short letters, arranging visits and meetings, transport, booking taxis, dealing with admin, including basic accounts work (this is just inputting data into a spreadsheet and ensuring that bills are paid by accounts). We asked for no specific qualifications, apart from a working knowledge of the language, and said that a familiarity with an office environment (and Microsoft office) would be desirable. We had sixty applicants. All graduates.

The other job we advertised was for a policy assistant. This included drafting papers, analysing and writing short reports on lengthy papers and taking the note at meetings. It also included some admin, as above, but paid slightly more. We had 140 applicants for this job. All graduates.

(LRD - just noticed, and worked out - I think - your name change! )

No by barely literate I don't mean making some SPAG mistakes - we all slip up or have blind spots. I mean things like not being able to construct a sentence that can be read and have its meaning clearly deduced; not being able to write a continuous, sequential piece of prose because they can only write one-off statements; not being able to see how something is spelt for example (like the name of the company you are applying to for a job) and making sure you pick that info up and use it.

Maybe it is a bit harsh because undergraduates will generally have basic literacy i.e. they can basically read and write. So they're not illiterate. The problem is being able to express themselves clearly in writing and write appropriately for a given situation.

Fair enough, I follow you.

I have to say, I get bothered by 'barely literate' - my mum and brother have both worked quite a lot with adults who're genuinely barely literate and it's so many miles away from even the worst undergraduates I've heard about.

That does sound pretty depressing, though.

I think for some students coming to the end of their degree, no-one sits them down and explains what a good job application entails. If it's the first time they are applying for jobs, they don't really know what is required of them. Some university academics (myself included when I was one) sit down with their tutees and go through their cover letters and CVs in order to show them what they need to be doing. However, many don't.

Of course they are.

They're magically blind to the zillion and one media articles about how their generation are all dumbed-down, illiterate, lazy and entitled. They didn't even notice the fact that university is suddenly massively more expensive and there are no jobs, because students are totally cocooned from that realization, ever single one of them.

On the other hand, previous generations were smart and intelligent, capable from the start, and never fucked up.

lrd I'm finding what you said truly strange.

When I was recruiting, I'd require an engaging covering letter of about three or four paragraphs referring to two or three points in the advertisement and a cv of no more than two pages that was relevant to the job.

That was enough for me to know that the person had paid attention and might be worth talking to.

You know what I do for a living, I think. Some people who know what I do think that spelling and grammar is the all-important thing. They're wrong. It is important to me, because it just is, and I'm good at it.

But it's not the best thing for the job by a long chalk and I look for other talents to round out the team.

The best reporter I've ever met had his stuff translated by copytakers because he was semi-literate, but you didn't want to be up against him on a story because he'd get it and leave you for dust.

He now owns the most successful celebrity news agency going. Several years ago I turned him down for a drink. Where did I go wrong?

Sorry ... did you think I meant, your post made me identify you with the person I was thinking of? Because that wasn't what I meant. I mean, I know someone who does this, and it does seem that she honestly doesn't connect up the fact she is taking pride in 'oh, we always insist on x, y and z, we're very strict' and the fact she is getting people who may pass those strict critera but don't actually seem to have the skills she needs.

Or did you mean you find my post strange because it's strange to think people do this?

If so, then I agree with that. But then, I also know someone (a relative, lucky me) who used to claim that he could 'just tell' by someone's handshake whether or not they were the 'right kind'. So, I conclude, either he wanted us all to think he was in the masons and was dropping heavy hints, or he was a bit of a prat.

I do think that's true, thewicked, but I think in that case, it's unfair to talk about 'tender little egos' - surely ignorance isn't egotistical?

it was so much easier in the 1980s to get a job at entry level without a degree. the sad fact is that so many similar organisations just will not look at anyone without a degree now, it has become a necessity for most generally better paid jobs. I started and worked my way up in organisations, I have just realised that I can't move on without that sacred degree (so I have done one! graduating in the next month). It's easier for kids to get degrees while then can, even from shock horror non rg universities. It's a stepping stone onto more interesting careers like it or not.

A good organisation will invest in training and help those with gaps in knowledge on the job, but without a degree it would be so much harder.

I have a degree in a soft subject. I don't use or need this degree for my current admin role, nor am I under any illusions of it being a pass to greatness. And I never have. If you don't think graduates should be doing admin jobs because we're taking them away from non graduates then you don't understand quite how useless most degrees are! I don't regret going to uni but I do regret my choice of subjects at degree and a level

Sorry,lrd there was a disconnect between my being sober between reading your first post and having a little drinkie before your last.

I get it now.

As you were

Enjoy the

And I realized when I re-read it wasn't clear. I was trying to be all cryptic about said person cos I suspect she is a MNer.

I feel a bit upset reading this thread as a current undergraduate.

For the record, I go to an ex-poly, and I'm not studying a traditional degree, so maybe the university feels it has to go to an extra effort to make us employable. We do get advice on how to apply for roles and are encouraged to get work experience in the summer holidays and/or take a placement year to make ourselves more employable.

Our essays also do get marked down for poor spelling and grammar, as well as not using appropriate scientific language and not using a formal enough writing style. I don't think- unless the assignment is completely incoherent, or there are major issues- it is fair to fail a student just for having poor grammar, especially in exams where our lecturers are aware we will have been writing for 2-3 hours straight. Lecturers often mention specific issues in general feedback, including any grammar issues that came up regularly.

I think, from talking to my recently graduated friends, the main problem is the volume of jobs graduates are applying for these days. This may not be the right way to go about things, but when you are 100 or more applications in, it must get harder to have the enthusiasm to individually tailor each letter.

Also, I would say we are the product of an education system that did not teach grammar formally as such. Certainly by secondary school, I can't remember having much formal grammar teaching at all. Most of my understanding of grammar actually comes from learning French, and therefore is not directly applicable to English in some cases. At primary school I was obviously taught how to use punctuation but some of this (such as how to use a comma) I found out was later partially incorrect.

I was also very lucky to have some excellent teachers at A level who helped me learn "how to write an essay" and "how to write a scientific paper", but I do think it is possible to get to uni (if you didn't take any essay based A levels) without being formally taught how to write an essay properly. I do think the education system is possibly (probably) going wrong somewhere.

I'm not saying I've never met lazy, entitled graduates/undergraduates who think the world owes them a living- even though they've never had a propper job before. Some of them have been unemployed for months after graduating. However, the hard-working and commited ones got jobs quickly and are doing well for themselves- so they must be doing something right?

Actually I don't think learning the rules of grammar as a strict set of instructions is that useful. We pick them up by learning the language as children. I was at school (yikes) 30 years ago and we didn't learn it then either.

What teaches you to write well is practice, reading widely and being required to write as part of coursework (and being guided and corrected as you go). I think the rise of multiple choice may be partly to blame. Teaching how to write an essay and how to write a science paper etc. is great though.

Also, it's not that all graduates are useless - far from it. While my DP bemoans the masses of lazy, entitled, not very literate ones, he also often says some are so bright and brilliant he feels thick himself!

Even more annoying to teach. Luckily there's enough good ones to make my job worthwhile, for now anyway.