To think this is ridiculous?

[silverfisher]

I took a look on the Turn2Us calculator to see what a family with the same makeup as our own, living in the same area, with the same housings situation as us, would be able to get in benefits on a £15,000 wage. It turns out that a family on a £15,000 salary would get so many top ups with tax credits and housing benefit etc that they would get the same income (including child benefit) as ours on a £45,000 wage (after tax).

So basically, these days you are not necessarily better off by working more and getting better pay as low incomes are always topped up so heavily that it makes little difference to your after tax income whether you dropped out of school and got a low paying job or whether you went to university, got into loads of debt and then did loads of 40+ hour weeks, you will end up with the same take home pay.

I know I will probably get a lot of criticism for this but I think it is totally demoralising to think that there is very little point in going to University or striving if you want to be better off economically and basically work doesn't actually pay.

Oh, and relatively small mortgage for me so no HB - and cheaper than renting

Sorry but I dont believe you. The benefit cap introduced, as seen here:
www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/benefit-cap-factsheet.pdf
States that non working households can receive benefits over £500 per week as of April 2013. Which works out as £24,000 per year maximum. How could a working family on 15k rake in an additional £30,000 a year approx (after tax?!) Housing benefit is also capped at the local housing allowance rate so to get that amount in benefits your rent would have to be about 24k per year and tax credits about 10k per year.
See here:www.dwp.gov.uk/local-authority-staff/housing-benefit/claims-processing/local-housing-allowance/impact-of-changes.shtml
It just seems highly unlikely that councils would allow those figures for the lha? Do you have lots of children?

And apologies MissMarples- my wage is higher than MW to get my pay level

also what ihear sounds said! Plus housing benefit is so shit to rely on as if you are paid £10 per week too much over a year (which is a relatively small amount to notice if overtime etc is accounted for), they will then send you a bill for over £500. It is very easy for this to happen unless you take wage slips etc each month.

Imagine being so sad and having so much time on your hands you waste time on benefits calculators for no reason. Nah, that would be stirring, right? I mean, surely everyone has better things to do than sit around figuring out how much money someone on a pathetic wage has?

I think that the problem is the way benefits evolved in the first place. So many benefits were introduced for people on low income that inflation went mad as a result.

Housing, utilities, food, essentials and a little left over should be affordable to everyone on the lowest pay bands without the need for benefits.

What benefits mean is that land lords can raise their prices as can gas and electricity companies, and everyone else selling things we need to live in our society.

If we had a fair, living minimum wage there should be no need for benefits for able bodied people. this is where the problems come in, because there will always be a point at which someone on benefits gets more than someone working but earning just a bit too much to claim.

In my world the whole system would be scrapped and rewritten so that working was always the better choice, the problem is we have such high living costs that the minimum wage would have to be so high to compensate for the cost of living that businesses couldn't afford it. If a way could be found to raise the minimum wage enough then benefits could be scrapped completely for working people, and the welfare state would then be able to properly cater for people who are unable to work due to disability, or being a carer for someone with a disability, and could also provide a safety net for those who are temporarily out of work.

Right, so let the poor people choose between food and heat, just to make you feel better about working?

How many children do you have OP?

I think its ridiculous that tax credits are paid for unlimited children. A relative of mine has 5 DCs and both adults work about 2 days per week each in low paid, but not minimum wage jobs - they have deliberatley set their working hours to make maximum benefit out of the tax credits system as there is not much point working any more hours.

They own their own home with a tiny mortgage (less than £150 pm) and don't pay for any rent or childcare and no-one has any disabilities, yet they are entitled to over £21k per year in a combination of CTC, WTC, CB and council tax benefit, with not a penny of this going to the great evils that are rent and childcare.

When the ~£10k pa they earn as wages is included, their household income is the same as someone on a £40-£45k pa salary, so similar to what you say OP. And its not short term either - they have been doing this for years and have a newborn (might not be the last one either) so I can see this going on for a good few years yet.

Oh FGS! My sister has a degree and a PGCE. Tonnes of student debt and currently works in a fricking office on £14000 a year. You don't work any harder than someone earning less than you just because you earn £45k!

GinOn well your relatives are just plain stupid if they have 5 kids just for income. The amount of work that goes into having children plus the fact you are restricted in taking them anywhere for days out or holidays means if they are really doing this they are massively shooting themselves in the foot.

I find the calculators are not always correct. I work part time & also claim
Jsa(not through blooming choice i tell you). When i put my details into the calculators it says i can get full jsa & my wage which isnt true. I keep 20pounds of my jsa(which is 70 pounds) & my wage which is not a lot when u work about 10 hours a week on NMW.

I think all this benefit bashing has gotten too much. No one knows where their lives may end up.

go for it OP- sounds like a win win situation. let us know how you get on after say a year on 15k?

YA, of course, BU. The calculator is inaccurate, as is your idea that you'd be much better off.

When I lived with ex.h, he earned £15400 per year, we got £25 a week HB, and £120 per week tax credits. That makes £22k.

If you come out with less than that after tax, on £45k, I suggest you have a chat with HMRC

Not going to get into the benefits debate as don't know enough about it.

BUT....how dare you assume that someone on a lower wage has not worked hard to get there or works hard at thier job. I am disgusted at that comment.

Yes it is ridiculous. Massively ridiculous.

God, I am so sick of reading these threads.

In my worst moments, i have felt absolutely frustrated that there are girls in my home town, a v. v. naice part of england, who have moved into local authority properties that i can't afford to buy!! But you know what? I've got loads of other options in different parts of the country, a fulfilling career, comfortable lifestyle and am happy.

I wouldn't swap that. Everyones lives are different. Be glad youve had the opportunities you have had and can go out and earn a decent salary. If you don't like it go on bloody benefits, Find out what it is like waiting for a payment, having a landlord on your case because the housing benefit hasn't come through yet, having to declare every change in your circumstance, not being able to legitimately go out and do a few days work. It's a pain in the arse. Sick of people going on about benefits. I am grateful there is a system in place to support people who needed and that it would be there to support me if i needed it. (and has been in the past)

Come and do my lowly paid job then!

That's right everybody who went to university has a job bringing in 45k a year. I, personally, must have missed that bit of the graduation ceremony - did jobs get handed out before or after the champagne luncheon?

Why do some comfortably off working people need to feel that those on benefits are 'suffering in poverty' ? It's a fucking horrible attitude.

People are actually suffering in poverty.... Does that make you happy o.p? If you resent working find a job you enjoy. The benefit system is not an option for the majority, it is essential.

I was unemployed for 12 weeks earlier this year. I recieved about £27,000 nett pro rata for those 12 weeks - £800 CTC, £720 HB, £450 JSA, £190CB per 4 week period.

I have just started a new job and the nett will be just under £1296. CB will take that up to £1486. I have been told that my HB will be £248 so that makes £1734. All I have to hope now is that my CTC payments are £445 per month and I will be in much the same position as I was. My rent, gas, electricity, water, council tax, food, and petrol is £1800 per month and then there is car insurance, house insurance, so I am not really looking for benefits to buy a new TV or go on an expensive holiday.

I would have much rather stayed at home with my wife and children and been paid more than I was in my previous job, but how can you justify that.

My new company insists on us not doing much overtime - they believe that your family life is more important than your work life) and I work hard for the hours I am there. So am I not worthy of the benefits I AM going to claim?

£2775 is the approx monthly nett for someone on £45000. I don't see that being a reality for someone on benefits unless they have a very large family.

Periodfeatures: you can go and do a few days work - it may not seem "worth it" due to lost benefits and hassle but it is possible. Just as it doesn't appear "worth it" to the OP to have worked so hard. Although difficult, in both cases the longer term view is important and the feeling of gaining/having more control of your own life.

:/ confused. This is completely circumstantial. If you are that convinced by those calculations, why don't you cut down your hours and give it a try ? (good luck trying to get that much in benefits though... All im saying).

I don't understand this at all. I have, in the past, had to support two adults on a minimum wage job (dh had been made redundant) and we were entitled to exactly zero help from the taxpayer. No help with housing, no jobseekers allowance for him, no help with rates bill, not even a free prescription. When did it change to allow low paid workers to get massively topped up like this?

As it happens, I don't follow the logic anyway. Low paid jobs are often crushingly, soul destroyingly boring, at the mercy of highly paid out of touch management whose sole aim is to squeeze more and more out of their underlings, in order to show their success and secyre their own payrise. Higher paid jobs tend to be done by people who enjoy their jobs, find them rewarding (not just financially), and gain status etc from their work. The idea that people would choose to earn £15k a year and be treated like crap, just to have their salary topped up and have people judge them makes no sense to me. The idea that low paid workers work shorter hours and don't have any stress, don't take work home with them (mentally, that is, not physically working at home) is very far from reality for a lot of workers.

That's bollocks. It's more like £5k a year.

In my opinion work isn't just about money - and if you have an interesting job that you like then you should feel thankful that you have the opportunity and background to do it... Does that make sense? I get so much more from work than a pay check! I know that is not strictly the point of your AIBU but Id just like to add another viewpoint...