AIBU (or even worse, stingy!)

[daisychain01]

I would like to use the services of a cleaner for 3 hours a week on a Monday. I could either advertise locally and hope to get a local person who I would be willing to pay about £10 or £11 per hour for 3 hours.

I have also enquired with a cleaning agency to compare the difference if I find a cleaner through them. There were two things that surprised me - firstly, if a cleaner causes any damage during the course of their cleaning at my house, the agency said that their insurance policy covers items over £100 (their policy excess), but I would have to pay that first £100 (not the agency, whose policy it is), but they would settle the balance of the claim. Items under £100 are not covered, but they said I would have to ask the cleaner to pay (if they admitted it was their fault!).

Secondly, even more surprising to me, the agency said that legally their cleaners are entitled to 4 weeks' holiday pay per year, which I have to pay! So if I pay the person £30/week, they would be able to claim 4 x £30 per year holiday pay from me. Is that true? If the cleaner also cleans for 5 or 6 other people, they can claim (for example) 6 x £120 holiday pay!

I'm happy to be told I am totally out of touch with reality, but both those things seem to be heavily biased towards the agency and the cleaner, with me on the losing side of the deal!

Sorry just to be clear, I do mean £30 - £33 over the 3 hour period!

Not much advice but seems easier to do it yourself!

That's not on. I've used cleaning agencies and I have never paid holiday pay - they should be calculating that in their expenses.

They sound like a bit of a Mickey Mouse agency - are there others about?

Daisy one of my businesses is a cleaning agency. From what you have written it sounds like you have contracted the Time For You franchise.
Cleaning agencies take staff on on a self employed basis and so they are not entitled to holiday leave and you are certainly not supposed to be paying it.
When my staff break something they pay out of their salary and if it is very expensive they pay the excess. This often means the cleaner gets the hump and quits in which case I end up picking up the tab. I charge £11 per hour for agency service and that includes my management fee. The only advice I would give is if you use a cleaning agency try to avoid the franchises as some franchisees do not know what they are doing. If you are in the London or Essex region I can recommend Arising Cleaning Agency which is run by a friend and he charges £7 per hour plus £22 monthly management fee

Not usual in my experience. Don't use that agency!

PLEASE tell me the name of the company... I am really curious now.

Daisy We've had cleaners both through agencies and independent ones for years, and I've never heard of such a thing as paying for their holiday. They're either an employee of the cleaning agency, and as such, the agency has the responsibility for all legal matters (national insurance contributions, holiday pay, etc.), or they're an independent contractor, in which case they are personally responsible for paying themselves.

It sounds like absolute bollocks to me.

The insurance stuff sounds off but the holiday pay sounds spot on. Does your employer not pay you/ your husband holiday pay or should the cleaner work all year round with no break?

Bugger every agency I know ( I know virtually everyone in the Bolton area and most of the big nationals) all use self employed cleaners

Well that doesnt make it right does it? Its up there with super markets taking staff on zero hour contracts. I think its good that workers in industries such as cleaning receive security. Perhaps wave the management fee and charge the service user a lower rate?

Wow! I used a cleaning company they charged £38 for 2 'maid' hours PW (2 cleaners who worked alongside each other for 1 hour).
I never paid anything other than the £38. If the couldn't come (illness/snow) I didn't pay them, their company did.
They broke a picture frame once and the company sent me a cheque for £25 to cover cost of replacement.

Do not use the company you have described in your OP. Find a better one.

(During holiday periods)

Not my experience either

Yes of course the cleaners are entitled to holidays but if you are just contracting someone a couple of hours a week that cost should be borne by the agency and built in to their fee IMO

Try a different agency

To be clear, the company I used employed their cleaning staff themselves and paid them holiday pay/ sickness etc. themselves. Don't use an agency OP.

Petal, yes I am quickly coming to that conclusion .

Jean, thanks for your insights - I was amazed by the holiday pay and I have to say, I wondered if they were pulling a 'fast one' on me. I have asked a different agency to come over on Wednesday so it will be interesting to hear what they say.

I have had a couple of (recent) disasters with cleaners, despite trying to do all the right things, such as buying them new equipment, nice low level steps so they don't have to climb ladders, new hoover at their request, and I wash out their dusters every week.

Four weeks ago the cleaner decided she needed to leave early, and rather than ask me first, she just took it upon herself to turn up in the morning with another cleaner to work with her (who I had never met nor had I given permission in advance). Benefit of hindsight, I would have sent them both off and said I would clean that week - but I was too soft and didn't want her to lose her wages ....

After they left, I went into the bathroom and found a massive dent taken out of the sink (bowl) which has left a hole in it - about £300 worth of damage. When I reported it to the agency, they came round and acknowledged the damage and said they would claim on their insurance or otherwise would pay me themselves. Me being too soft (again, benefit of hindsight!) I believed them, only to be told a week later that the cleaner denied all knowledge and said it was already damaged when she got there. Of course the agency stood by their cleaner (they would, wouldn't they?).

We also made a very stupid mistake of letting our previous cleaner (who we had known for 5 years) our house key so they could clean when we went away for 10 days. When we came back home, they had adjusted the thermostat up to full blast and left it like that - so the heating was on for 12 hours a day for 10 days at top wack and burned through £300 worth of heating oil.

I am beginning to wonder if it's worth the stress .....

Wow I am overcome - all you lovely people taking time to help me!! Thanks so much [hugs] oh dear there isn't an icon for a hug, never mind!

Arnie - The agency is called Sel-Clean and they are a Franchise based in Frimley Surrey. The thing that annoyed me was that my DH rang someone locally to us, they were called Rainbow Cleaners, and out of sheer coincidence they franchise through the Sel-Clean 'brand' in Surrey - then when we compared notes (and the lady from Rainbow came over this afternoon), the stories they gave were totally inconsistent - Surrey never even mentioned the "holiday pay", and they said that they would (on a case-by-case basis) 'probably settle the £100 exces's whereas Mrs Rainbow said that we would have to pay it ... who can I believe?

MrsLT - I was hoping that by going through an agency, they might charge £3 a week more, but that we would have some benefits, such as having insurance they would be prepared to claim against, and also having a cleaner who arrives with CRB/references already checked before-hand - but I can see the downside now!

I am now having nightmares about things like ... what if the cleaner falls off our steps, could they start a personal injury claim against us ? It seems like we are just becoming "open season" to be taken for a ride!!

Hi Op. I'm self employed as a cleaner/general person (do laundry, groceries etc too).

If i choose to go on holiday - i don't ask my customers to pay me. I'm self employed fgs. How could i ask them to pay me for work that i'm not doing? I'd be lucky to have any customers at all if i tried that.

I don't pretend to have much knowledge of insurance, but took some out anyway as it seemed the wise thing to do. It cost me £65 for a year, and i have a £250 excess on it. If i was to damage/break a customer's item while i was in their house, I'd most certainly pay it myself. Or claim it on my insurance. I wouldn't ask them to pay a penny.

I also charge £8 an hour and use my own supplies. This type of 'business' is really common round here though so i have to keep my prices low in order to get and keep customers.

Basically, the agency was way out of line. Please don't be put off hiring a cleaner because of them. I'm surprised to hear they get any business at all running like that.

What is the benefit of that agency then?

I would expect an agency to have employers liability insurance and public liability and also pay all excesses.

I would also expect them to send a cleaner to cover if my regular one was on holiday (at same charge as usual).

And for them to cover reference checks etc. on all their staff.

They should get holiday pay. Childminders are self employed and most if them get holiday pay as oer their contracts. I appreciate that most self employed people dont get holiday pay as such but most won't be working for you on a weekly basis so cleaners and childminders etc are different (in my opinion).
Not sure about the breakages and insurance issue.
Seems a lot less hassle to just do the cleaning myself.

I would have thought the agency would be responsible for holiday pay then - certainly not the customer.

Self employed people - like CMs - can charge what they like, as long as it's agreed and signed before work commences.

I just struggle to see how a cleaner would get any business if they ask for holiday pay (bank holidays too?) every year when there's hundreds of cleaners out there who don't.

Badguider I think the agency is "meant" to take the hassle out of the situation by having a ready supply of vetted and motivated cleaners waiting to start working for me at a moment's notice . But it seems the onus is on us as the client to be funding the people they are meant to be placing.

Ewe i admire your responsible attitude, if only others took your approach. Do you know when push comes to shove DH and I have said we would not go demanding a cleaner to pay money out of their wages for the occasional breakage, we really would feel bad, because people doing cleaning are vulnerable to those mistakes and invariable dont mean to break something. We might, reasonably ask them to give us 2 or 3 hours cleaning for free, over a couple of weeks then call it quits, and often that is more about restoring the person's dignity than anything. I just dont want to be totally shafted by an agency.

Talking through it with DH we wonder if the holiday pay is so the agency can attract staff onto their books by saying "we will make sure you get holiday pay as well as a good supply of work". Hey it doesnt cost them anything, it is at our cost. Gosh it has been an eye opener!

I really like having someone to help us because we work full time, and at least we know that once a week, help is at hand - plus all the people we have employed have been mums who like a few hours work to tie in with school hours, so it has been a benefit for them too.

It will not be to attract staff. I advertised a cleaning job last week and had 500 applicants. Times are tough and a lot of decent workers are on the dole right now. To be honest they just sound like a typical cleaning franchise company. I have some good friends who run one of the leading cleaning franchises in the UK. They are really professional but even they admit (privately I would never name them on a public forum) that they will flog a franchise to anyone who can afford one

My advice to you would be to try and find a self employed cleaner directly by advertising through universal Jobmatch or getting a neighbour to try and recommend you. Mrs Loius is using a Molly Maid type service where you get 2 cleaners who are employees and these are really good if you do not mind paying the extra.

I've had 2 cleaners in the last20 years. Both self employed and both charged 2 weeks holiday pay a year. Seemed reasonable to me and I know it's quite standard in this area (outskirts of London).

Thanks Arnie, I will take your advice and I don't mind paying the going rate plus a few quid extra.

Whatdoiknow - I actually think 2 weeks' holiday pay is reasonable and would not begrudge that. I just thought 4 weeks' pay is really harsh, when they are only working 3 hours per week!

I am actually coming to the conclusion I would rather find someone locally through word of mouth, pay them £12 per hour all year round and not bother with holiday pay - then they are getting the top end of the scale and will hopefully be happy and stay with us, and be extra careful re breakages!