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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

to complain about midwife (internal/assault)

273 replies

Hensinthehedgerow · 31/07/2013 14:41

I'm sorry if this is in the wrong section. I'm in search of some opinions. This may not sound like much to complain about to some people. But this has really affected me and my marriage and I can't seem to move on.

In summary, I had a birth plan, it said no internal examinations and everything done needs to be explained to me. I thought she was doing an external examination, but instead did an internal which was very painful and basically in public view after my husband had been sent out of the room. I wish I had kicked her in the head and screamed and called the police, but I was holding my newborn baby and didn't Hmm I want to cry, I can't sleep.

I raised these issues with the som who said it shouldn't have happened an that she would speak to the midwives. Then emailed me to say the midwives agreed more communication would have been helpful to me wft

I have no idea if making a formal complaint will help. But can't let this go. Aibu to complain. The midwives were horrible and essentially bullied my husband. I guess it's wwyd? Sorry for the ramble.

OP posts:
mignonette · 31/07/2013 19:05

hmmmm

maja00 · 31/07/2013 19:08

I think it's fine to wish you had kicked someone who assaulted you - wishing you had physically defended yourself is quite a normal reaction isn't it?

HarderToKidnap - initially what you need is an explanation of what the HCP wants to do. "Check" is too vague if what they mean is "internal examination". "Internal examination" is not accurate if what they intend to do is perform a sweep.
Now if a woman is happy to consent to "an internal examination of your vagina to check for damage" then they might not need any more information. If a woman does not want to consent to that, then the HCP needs to explain why they feel it is important, what might happen if it isn't done, and what any alternatives might be.

snotfunny · 31/07/2013 19:10

hmmmm?

snotfunny · 31/07/2013 19:12

harder to kidnap - I would want to know: Where I am going to be touched, how, why and whether it's likely to be uncomfortable. That is an absolute minimum.

DayOldCheesecake · 31/07/2013 19:12

YABVU to think that your vagina is an external resource to having a baby.

Where do you precious idiots come from? Hmm

maja00 · 31/07/2013 19:13

"Your vagina is an external resource to having a baby" Confused

Would you explain that one?

mignonette · 31/07/2013 19:15

Along the same lines as "Just a little scratch"; "Just pop over here"; "Hold your breath, just a little jab"; "you won't need a local spray to ....."; "Sharp scratch now"; "Check down there"; "Have a little look"; "have a little feel" and all the other euphemisms and homilies used.

I personally do not like them but how do you tell somebody already frightened that an arterial stick may hurt like fuck for example? They'll tense up and it will hurt worse. Not all phrases have a sinister. conniving or maleficient reason behind them. Some are truly meant to ease a person through a horrid procedure. And as for not treating Women like children, we seem to absolve women of everything pre and post natally. That to me is infantilising in itself "Oh they can't help it".....Actually some violent aggressive behaviour can be helped. Not all but enough...

mignonette · 31/07/2013 19:16

hmm wasn't about you Snot...Just about some of the comments here.

mignonette · 31/07/2013 19:17

And yes i do know how to talk a patient through pain, how to help them cope but sometimes it does hurt like fuck and nothing can help...

snotfunny · 31/07/2013 19:18

My vagina is a part of my body. It is not a 'resource' and it certainly isn't 'external' (I think it may have nearly gone inside out at one point, but not sure that counts!)

Baffled.

maja00 · 31/07/2013 19:18

"I want to take a blood sample - sharp scratch/bit uncomfortable" - fine.
"I'm just going to take a little look at your arm" and then jab a needle in - not ok.

GladToBeBack · 31/07/2013 19:21

read most of the thread

hens had given birth, her baby was fine

there was no medical emergency to attend to

she specified in writing that she didn't want any internal examinations

sounds like assault to me

(going back to re-read in case I missed anything)

Irishmammybread · 31/07/2013 19:21

Congrats on your baby OP.
Surely though "assault" would indicate a certain intent from the midwife?
While agreeing that there seems to have been miscommunication and that the notes should have been read and I do sympathise with the OP on a traumatic experience, I don't think the midwife would have deliberately wanted to cause distress?
I've had 3 babies and 4 miscarriages and would have a certain expectation of the type of examination I would need in an obstretic situation. My DS was born after a long and difficult labour requiring repeated internals, catherisation and ultimately an episiotomy and forceps delivery ,I've had a membrane sweep, I had sutures after both my DDs,I had repeated transvaginal scans to assess my little ones who didn't make it. I don't remember detailed discussions about each vaginal exam/proceedure but I trusted that the midwives/doctors were acting in my/my babies best interests.
It's unfortunate that the midwife in question made assumptions, thinking that OP understood what a "check" entailed and that it was ok to continue without further explanations. Yes,an apology is warranted, retraining should be done on good communication and and as someone else suggested written information to be handed out is a good idea but I would think to "assault" someone actually indicates malicious intent to harm rather than someone mistakenly trying to help and do their job.

snotfunny · 31/07/2013 19:21

I've had a whole host of invasive, undignified, painful and prolonged medical procedures in my time and never once have I felt out of control, violated or like a piece of meat.

This is purely and simply because for each one I was told what would happen first. I knew I was going to be in pain or extremely uncomfortable and, in a way, that made me panic about it less, because I knew to expect it.

I felt in control because I knew I could ask it to stop at any time. I had been talked through the procedure so knew how long it would take and what was going to happen next.

If this isn't happening to women post-birth then that is horrendous. Truly.

snotfunny · 31/07/2013 19:22

Very concise precis there, Glad. Don't read the thread because it'll probably only annoy you!

mignonette · 31/07/2013 19:24

But "a bit uncomfortable" may be just as disingenuous as "I'm just going to look at your arm" That is what it may or may not come down to with some patients. Semantics...

maja00 · 31/07/2013 19:27

Irish - actually I think the assault can be caused intentionally or recklessly, for example the midwife was reckless in not gaining consent rather than intentionally causing fear or harm.

maja00 · 31/07/2013 19:28

mignonette - a bit uncomfortable vs. painful might be semantics, but surely you see a real difference between looking and sticking a needle in Confused

snotfunny · 31/07/2013 19:29

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

AndIFeedEmGunpowder · 31/07/2013 19:30

These guidelines may be worth a read Hens. I'm so sorry you had this experience.

mignonette · 31/07/2013 19:37

Of course I do but that is not the point I was making. If we say something should not hurt very much because our research both qual and quant suggests that it does not but then somebody comes along who says 'actually I was in agony' does that make us negligent, cruel, abusive etc?

Poor communication such as "see what's going on'; 'check you over/out' etc will result in these mis fires between what a patient thinks is going to happen, what she has consented to happen, what a nurse thinks etc.....And a HCP may believe she has gained informed consent when she has not. Not making excuses but finding reasons why this happens.

bonzo77 · 31/07/2013 19:38

Ok. I've not read the whole thread but....

...clinicians need to obtain INFORMED CONSENT for all therapeutic and investigative procedures. This involves explaining what is proposed, what the alternatives are, and the relative risks and benefits. If the MW believed an internal was required, despite you having previously declined, she should have said something like "I really think I need to examine you internally as I believe you have torn inside. If I don't I might miss something that later causes problems and needs treatment. " She could then discuss pain relief, offer a second opinion from another staff member or for someone else to examine you. You could still say no, or you might feel able to go ahead. And if you still declined she would make appropriate notes that she had tried and failed to obtain consent.

So for anyone who believes that the MW was just doing her job, and that the OP would have later taken action over missed pathology, it's just not the case. The MW failed to obtain informed consent. She then conducted an examination (I believe it's called "battery"), she failed in her duty of care and caused harm (in this case psychological). You could probably sue her both for assault and for negligence. I would consider engaging a solicitor to help you deal with this.

FWIW I had several internals and sweeps that I did not consent to with DS1 (failed induction over several days). I have no background that would have made me decline them. But next time I will be demanding that I am properly informed if what is happening.

mignonette · 31/07/2013 19:42

Pain is what a patient says it is and I try to offer what my patients need from me.. But no matter how sensitive we are to this, there will always be patients who have an experience that is atypical. For example IRL I have an idiosyncratic drug reaction to Benzo's. I get wildly over aroused in behaviour and the opposite of what the therapeutic effects are. Now the first time I had this reaction I knew what it was. But if I had not and had been told quite reasonably that i would soon feel calm, there is the potential for what i am saying. And being told about every rare side effects in the book for every drug prescribed would mean about three clinical interventions per shift. There has to be some common sense.

MadameLeBean · 31/07/2013 19:43

My dentist once performed a root canal procedure without my knowledge or consent. It was so traumatic I cried afterwards. I challenged her saying she should have told me what she was about to do. She then told me that she had done it without telling me because I was "a nervous patient". I had been getting better at not getting freaked out in dentist chair until then! I threatened to take complaint further but did not. I wish I had reported that bitch and got her struck off.
I'm with the OP, mw had no right to do internal without informed consent.

5madthings · 31/07/2013 19:46

snot exactly they explained what they were going to do and why and continued to explaon yhroughout. that is what should happen.

i had to have a specialist stitch me up after ds2, i had an unusual and delicate tear, it hurt but they gave me pain relief, reassured me they would stop if it was too much, a midwife held my hand and comforted me and helped me use gas and air and talked me througj the procedure. they kept me calm, kept me informed and stopped when i asked them to etc. that is as it should be.

unlike the dr who examined me when preg with ds1, i had already been examined by the midwife and without saying or asking what he was going to do he examined me and gave me a sweep. i was in agony with spd, dp told him he was hurting me and the drs reply....'what does she expect she is pregnant!'

the midwife apologised once the dr had left, i should have complained but was young and didnt know any different.