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AIBU?

to complain about midwife (internal/assault)

273 replies

Hensinthehedgerow · 31/07/2013 14:41

I'm sorry if this is in the wrong section. I'm in search of some opinions. This may not sound like much to complain about to some people. But this has really affected me and my marriage and I can't seem to move on.

In summary, I had a birth plan, it said no internal examinations and everything done needs to be explained to me. I thought she was doing an external examination, but instead did an internal which was very painful and basically in public view after my husband had been sent out of the room. I wish I had kicked her in the head and screamed and called the police, but I was holding my newborn baby and didn't Hmm I want to cry, I can't sleep.

I raised these issues with the som who said it shouldn't have happened an that she would speak to the midwives. Then emailed me to say the midwives agreed more communication would have been helpful to me wft

I have no idea if making a formal complaint will help. But can't let this go. Aibu to complain. The midwives were horrible and essentially bullied my husband. I guess it's wwyd? Sorry for the ramble.

OP posts:
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mignonette · 31/07/2013 19:48

I'm not against the OP. I haven't said that. But there are all kinds of issues worthy of discussion here.

And Maleficence versus Beneficence is one of them with regards to the MW conduct here. As is the state of MW service and why there probably won't be much of one in the future especially reasonably priced private MW.

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giveitago · 31/07/2013 21:01

Hens if you feel you need to make the complaint then you should.

Keep to the facts.

I had an experience but with a doctor (similar to 5mad) and I didn't complain and it's affected me since - possibly because I didn't complain.

Even the midwife was pulling him off due to his attitude (nasty), the fact I had said no more sweeps as they weren't working and they were leaving me in pools of blood.

I said nothing at the time as I felt this is part of birth and it was a miracle pregnancy and last chance saloon etc, and ds was two weeks overdue and in distress.

The next minute the poor lady in the next bed was going through the same thing.

Complain if it helps you heal but just stick to the facts so the department learns to up it's game.

I wish I'd complained. But in the fug of complicated birth I was just grateful for a live birth and left it at that. But it has weighed on my mind since.

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SwedishHouseMat · 31/07/2013 21:37

I would complain OP. I learnt far too late when I gave birth that phrases like "I want to do a little check" would result in internal exams, sweeps and having my water broken without consent. Never, ever trust a midwife or HCP when they say this. Keep your knickers on as long as possible - keep them on until you are about to give birth. If a HCP asks your DH to leave the room - it's not your dignity they are protecting, they don't want any witnesses when they assault you.

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Coffeenowplease · 31/07/2013 21:59

Some of these stories are really awful.

With any medical procedure you have to ensure understanding so that the patient can give informed consent ! Anything else = assault the same as if someone attacked you in the street.

I think some of the ones where people try and minimise pain are just as bad too, its lying to a patient its wrong.

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cheeseandbiscuitsplease · 31/07/2013 22:09

Ffs. Get a grip. Are you and your baby alive and healthy? Assault? Call the p

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cheeseandbiscuitsplease · 31/07/2013 22:10

Call the police? As the mother of a xh

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cheeseandbiscuitsplease · 31/07/2013 22:11

Child with cerebral palsy due to clinical negligence I would advise you to get a grip. Seriously.

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Wheresmycaffeinedrip · 31/07/2013 22:23

cheese I am sorry about what happened to your child. But it does not excuse what happened just because her baby is ok.

These midwives are there for what is the happiest or most traumatic or even the most tragic time of their lives. A kind caring attitude is essential. And two minutes to explain what she was doing and why would not have killed her.

Baby had already been born , no one was in any danger. The midwife was extremely rude and presumptuous and what she did wasn't right.

I hope op does complain. A medical degree does not give anyone the right to force procedures on people without gaining consent first. Not when the patient is fully conscious and coherent. It was lazy and unlawful.

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Wheresmycaffeinedrip · 31/07/2013 22:26

And the husband was sent out. For no good reason. They just witnessed their wife push out a baby puke and poo on the bed and blood everywhere. As if an examination would phase them after that. She clearly knew she was in the wrong and didn't want a witness

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maja00 · 31/07/2013 22:26

Really cheese? So because something worse might have happened to someone else, the rest should put up and shut up?

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Shiraztastic · 31/07/2013 23:15

Nursing and Midwifery Code of Conduct states:

"The people in your care must be able to trust you with their health and wellbeing
To justify that trust, you must:
? make the care of people your first concern, treating them as individuals and respecting their dignity

...

As a professional, you are personally accountable for actions and omissions in your practice, and must always be able to justify your decisions.
You must always act lawfully, whether those laws relate to your professional practice or personal life.
Failure to comply with this code may bring your fitness
to practise into question and endanger your registration.

...

Ensure you gain consent
13 Youmustensurethatyougainconsentbeforeyoubegin any treatment or care.
14 Youmustrespectandsupportpeople?srightstoaccept or decline treatment and care.
15 You must uphold people?s rights to be fully involved in decisions about their care."

It's fairly straightforward, and set out clearly in black and white. It sounds like some nurses and midwives need a refresher.

Detailes info from NMC about consent is available here. This seems the most relevant part:

?You must respect and support people?s rights to accept or decline treatment and care.?

"If a person feels the information they have received is insufficient, they could make a complaint to the NMC or take legal action. Most legal action is in the form of an allegation of negligence. It is therefore essential that nurses and midwives ensure that they:

??share with people, in a way they can understand, the information they want or need to know about their health.?

In exceptional cases, for example, where consent was obtained by deception or where not enough information was given, this could result in an allegation of battery (or civil assault in Scotland). However, only in the most extreme cases is criminal law likely to be involved."

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RedToothBrush · 02/08/2013 20:40

This thread is utterly appalling and full of some extremely ignorant people who are excusing the unprofessional behaviour of doctors and midwives with this ignorance.

I would like to try and set the record straight a little in a similar fashion to Shiraztastic by stating what the law says, what your rights are and what informed consent should look like.

The following is from a DoH document dated 2009 entitled Reference Guide to Consent for Examination or Treatment

From the Introduction:
1. It is a general legal and ethical principle that valid consent must be obtained before starting treatment or physical investigation, or providing personal care, for a person. This principle reflects the right of patients to determine what happens to their own bodies, and is a fundamental part of good practice. A healthcare professional (or other healthcare staff) who does not respect this principle may be liable both to legal action by the patient and to action by their professional body. Employing bodies may also be liable for the actions of their staff.

2.While there is no English statute setting out the general principles of consent, case law (?common law?) has established that touching a patient without valid consent may constitute the civil or criminal offence of battery. Further, if healthcare professionals (or other healthcare staff) fail to obtain proper consent and the patient subsequently suffers harm as a result of treatment, this may be a factor in a claim of negligence against the healthcare professional involved. Poor handling of the consent process may also result in complaints from patients through the NHS complaints procedure or to professional bodies.

Unless you are deemed unable to consent under the Mental Capacity Act 2005 no one can perform a medical examination on you without your consent. It is very clear what constitutes being incapable to make a decision. If the OP was able to hold her baby, she quite clearly was capable of giving and refusing consent.

Not only that, but if there was any question about her ability to give consent, her partner should NOT have been sent away.

From the same document
Valid Consent
For consent to be valid, it must be given voluntarily by an appropriately informed person who has the capacity to consent to the intervention in question (this will be the patient or someone with parental responsibility for a patient under the age of 18, someone authorised to do so under a Lasting Power of Attorney (LPA) or someone who has the authority to make treatment decisions as a court appointed deputy). Acquiescence where the person does not know what the intervention entails is not ?consent?.

When should consent be sought?
The seeking and giving of consent is usually a process, rather than a one-off event. For major interventions, it is good practice where possible to seek the person?s consent to the proposed procedure well in advance, when there is time to respond to the person?s questions and provide adequate information. Clinicians should then check, before the procedure starts, that the person still consents. If a person is not asked to signify their consent until just before the procedure is due to start, at a time when they may be feeling particularly vulnerable, there may be real doubt as to its validity. In no circumstances should a person be given routine pre-operative medication before being asked for their consent to proceed with the treatment.

Duration of consent
When a person gives valid consent to an intervention, in general that consent remains valid for an indefinite duration, unless it is withdrawn by the person. However, if new information becomes available regarding the proposed intervention (for example new evidence of risks or new treatment options) between the time when consent was sought and when the intervention is undertaken, the GMC guidance states that a doctor or member of the healthcare team should inform the patient and reconfirm their consent. In the light of paragraph 19 above, the clinician should consider whether the new information should be drawn to the attention of the patient and the process of seeking consent repeated on the basis of this information. Similarly, if the patient?s condition has changed significantly in the intervening time it may be necessary to seek consent again, on the basis that the likely benefits and/or risks of the intervention may also have changed.

Withdrawal of consent
A person with capacity is entitled to withdraw consent at any time, including during the performance of a procedure. Where a person does object during treatment, it is good practice for the practitioner, if at all possible, to stop the procedure, establish the person?s concerns and explain the consequences of not completing the procedure. At times, an apparent objection may in fact be a cry of pain rather than withdrawal of consent, and appropriate reassurance may enable the practitioner to continue with the person?s consent. If stopping the procedure at that point would genuinely put the life of the person at risk, the practitioner may be entitled to continue until that risk no longer applies.

Advance decisions to refuse treatment
A person may have made an advance decision to refuse particular treatment in anticipation of future incapacity (sometimes previously referred to as a ?living will? or ?advance directive?). A valid and applicable advance decision to refuse treatment has the same force as a contemporaneous decision to refuse treatment. This is a well-established rule of common law, and the Mental Capacity Act 2005 now puts advance decisions on a statutory basis. The Act sets out the requirements that such a decision must meet to be valid and applicable. Further details are available in chapter 9 of the Mental Capacity Act (2005) Code of Practice, but in summary these are:
?the person must be 18 or over
?the person must have the capacity to make such a decision
?the person must make clear which treatments they are refusing
?if the advance decision refuses life-sustaining treatment, it must be in writing (it can be written by someone else or recorded in healthcare notes), it must be signed and witnessed and it must state clearly that the decision applies even if life is at risk
?a person with capacity can withdraw their advance decision at any time.

Healthcare professionals must follow an advance decision if it is valid and applicable, even if it may result in the person?s death. If they do not, they could face criminal prosecution or civil liability. The Mental Capacity Act 2005 protects a health professional from liability for treating or continuing to treat a person in the person?s best interests if they are not satisfied that an advance decision exists which is valid and applicable. The Act also protects healthcare professionals from liability for the consequences of withholding or withdrawing a treatment if at the time they reasonably believe that there is a valid and applicable advance decision. If there is genuine doubt or disagreement about an advance decision?s existence, validity or applicability, the case should be referred to the Court of Protection. The court does not have the power to overturn a valid and applicable advance decision. While a decision is awaited from the courts, healthcare professionals can provide life-sustaining treatment or treatment to stop a serious deterioration in the patient?s condition.

If an advance decision is not valid or applicable to current circumstances, healthcare professionals must consider the advance decision as part of their assessment of the person?s best interests. Advance decisions made before the Mental Capacity Act came into force may still be valid if they meet the provisions of the Act.

*May I make it VERY VERY clear, that from what the OP says the midwife in question has ignored a great many of these points. It is not a simple, 'doing something in the best interests of a patient'. The ONLY person who, in LAW, knows what is best for that patient, is the patient themselves'. This isn't actually as hard to do as some people on this thread are trying to make out, especially given the information the OP stated about her circumstances.

The following is from www.birthrights.org.uk and its brilliant.

What Should Informed Consent Look Like?
If I am asked by doctors or midwives what informed consent should mean in birth care, I tell them that it could be said to consist of three parts:
1)     Inform.  Tell the woman about what you observe to be going on at this moment in the pregnancy or birth.  Tell her about all of the healthcare alternatives that are available to her.  Not just the one you think she should do.  Tell her as much as you know about the risks and benefits of each alternative, and what kind of evidence exists for this information.  This part of the discussion should be a transfer of objective facts, and you should leave your opinion out of it.

2)     Advise.  Tell the woman what you think she should do.  Tell her why.  This is a good moment to express the limits of your own skills and knowledge.  Are you advising a cesarean for breech because you haven?t been trained in breech births?  This is a time to mention that.  This part of the discussion can be an expression of your subjective opinion about what you would counsel the woman to do.

3)     Support. Support the woman in the exercise of a decision between the alternatives.  This includes the decision not to follow your advice.  It isn?t informed consent unless the patient has the ability to choose an alternative other than the one that the provider recommends.
 
Informed Consent is the bridge between evidence-based care and human rights in childbirth.  The information is evidence?all patients have a right to be informed about the evidence regarding the healthcare alternatives available to them.  The consent is the human right, the legal right, the constitutional right. Pregnant women, like all citizens, have the right to informed consent.

A ?yes? is not meaningful unless you also have the right to say ?no.?

OP, complain like hell. You were assaulted and a criminal act has taken place.

The rest of you defending that midwife, read the guidelines and law and learn.

If any of you can still tell me that what the midwife treating the OP is right, in any way justifiable and that she followed the DoH advice and guidance, I challenge you to tell me just how she did.

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Dementedhousewife · 02/08/2013 21:44

I work in a high pressure area (trauma) I still manage to gain consent before I do anything to my patients. Saving lives with minimal equipment doesn't stop me from a quick, 'I need to do this, can I go ahead?'.
The NMC code states that,
You must treat people as individuals and respect their dignity.
You must listen to people in your care and respond to their concerns and preferences.
You must ensure you gain consent before you begin any treatment or care.
You must respect and support peoples rights to accept or decline treatment or care.
The midwife performed an internal examination without expressed consent and went against the recorded wishes in the Op's birthplan. Yes it is assault and yes you should complain. PALS will be able to advise you.

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Hensinthehedgerow · 02/08/2013 22:52

Thank you, I will complain (unfortunately I think complaining an the process is going to be very difficult) I really want to try to heal now, but I'm not sure how to

OP posts:
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RedToothBrush · 03/08/2013 11:52

Hens, if you need to know how/where to complain or to get advice/support about complaining then the Citizens Advice Bureau have a very good guide.

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MortifiedAdams · 03/08/2013 11:58

I had a few internals during labour, and they were painful.enough for me to insist on none in the future. I never had any post-birth - I dont understand the need tbh.

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Meerkatwhiskers · 03/08/2013 14:42

If it was a gynae examination full informed consent would be sought and a chaperone would be present. I don't know if that's the case in midwifery but I guess it's probably not but it should be be same practice in my opinion.

I know a lot has been posted about consent but as a current student nurse (a week from being a 3rd year yay) the lectures are all very fresh in my mind. There are 2 types of consent. Informed and presumed. Informed is the most common used form of consent and applies here and should certainly have been sought. Presumed is more uses in ED and by paramedics in trauma and resus situations when a patient isn't able to give informed consent ie in an unconscious patient. So in the best interest of the patient then presumed consent is used to treat them. This is where problems such as blood transfusions given to Jehovah's witnesses crop up as you tend to have no family history although very rare.

Family aren't always about to give consent in all circumstances. When I was working in resus (first day of placement) a lady came in with shortness of breathe and ended up in cardiac arrest and her only family were her 2 teenage daughters so we had to work on presumed consent.

Sorry this has happened to you. Our lecturers are always very clear to make sure we are 100% in explaining what we are doing to patients so that things like this don't happen. I think she did try to explain by saying she was checking for grazes and that to her meant an internal but to you that didn't. She should have actually said she was going to do an internal.

I agree with othes that this is not assault though. It's common knowledge that internals are a part of childbirth and the midwife really should have explained herself a lot better. Yes I think you should complain as I would also feel surprised by getting an internal when not expecting on but I think mentioning assault will mean that she may lose her job when all she needs is a course in communication. Do you really want her to lose her job? We have a national shortage of midwives as it is and soon a real shortage of nurses too as there aren't enough being trained to cover those that will be retiring in the next few years.

I have just applied for midwifery so I promise I will bear it in mind for my future practice.

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confuddledDOTcom · 03/08/2013 18:51

I'm absolutely disgusted with this thread (although thank you to the wonderful posters who understand!) but it proves what we've set Maternity Rights up for.

I had a crash section, it was a very serious situation but they managed to explain and get my signature on three different consent forms before I even got to theatre. I had a client who had a forceps delivery, another very serious situation where both she and baby were struggling, she told them to stop and they stopped until she gave them the go ahead to continue. Even in the most difficult situation there is always time to explain, even if you can't explain it all.

I managed to deliver my son at 29 weeks, in delivery for 4 days, without having VEs, amazingly we have been designed to give birth without being messed with! It doesn't take a VE to tell you when to push. I'm not saying that there isn't a place for intervention but as I said on the other thread, intervention shouldn't be the norm - that's what's wrong with maternity care, that's why all these complaints, that's why all the people here who are arguing with the OP. This is the attitude we need to challenge.

Someone used needles as an example, now I don't know about anyone else but when I've had blood taken or injections (and I've had quite a few!) you will know you are going to be getting it before they start. Most gentle HCPs vampires will mean it when they say sharp scratch, some have managed to push me close to another TIA, I have had one once through blood draws but it was the amount they took not the nice midwife doing it.

I suffered Birth Trauma (PTSD after a birth) from a birth where no one did anything wrong and I have never said they did. Apart from one thing, no one kept me informed. They saw my requests for information as fault finding and everyone clammed up. It took 6 years to get anyone to go through my notes and explain it to me. BT isn't a competition, it's not selfish, it's just the brain struggling to make sense of a senseless situation. Why don't all soldiers suffer PTSD?

Please, can those of you who support us come and add your name to the website, tell your story or just be supportive.

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confuddledDOTcom · 03/08/2013 20:02

I forgot to say, manners don't cost anything, so stop blaming it on budgets!

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SwedishHouseMat · 03/08/2013 20:20

Meerkatwhiskers - internal exams do not have to be part of childbirth. Women can refuse them.

I think this midwife should be sacked to prevent other women being assaulted by her. Can you really ignore this appalling treatment of a defenceless woman just because there was a national shortage of midwives?

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Hensinthehedgerow · 03/08/2013 20:37

Meerkat, I think your confused I had expressly stated no internals, and put it in writing. And 'surprised' is very insulting.

OP posts:
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LaGuardia · 03/08/2013 21:00

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Leverette · 03/08/2013 21:04

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Wheresmycaffeinedrip · 03/08/2013 21:06

laGardia you would still need to open legs for an external exam! Precious? Ffs how dare you.

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Leverette · 03/08/2013 21:34

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