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to want to ask those who intend to vote UKIP a few questions about their policies?

188 replies

PdHeatonsingingfafafa · 28/07/2013 08:28

Let me ask you this. Has anybody here actually looked at UKIP policies? If so, perhaps you can answer some questions for me.
1: UKIP say they want an amicable divorce from the EU. How smoothly do they believe that can happen?

  1. UKIP want a 5 year hold on immigration. To do so, they think that it is essential to leave the EU as the EU allows citizens of member states to move freely. Ok, what happens to the 2.2 million Brits living in other EU nations? Do we force them to return? It has to work both ways. 3: A flat tax rate can never work. I imagine this is why the party cannot decide whether or not they should have 1 rate or 2. Their 2010 proposal was a rate of 31% for everybody. That is evidently a major tax break for the rich whilst the poor pay more. Is this something you support?

4: A return to the grammar school education model would see communities being ripped in half and children unfairly separated. Who here thinks that is a good idea?
5: UKIP want to increase defence spending to facilitate the building of extra warships and nuclear weapons. When a member or supporter asks why soldiers aren't paid more, be sure to also ask why they'd squander money on these projects?
6: UKIP oppose the HS2 because of the damage it would do to the countryside. However, they also support fracking which would cause even greater damage. How can there be such contradiction? They also oppose manmade climate change. On what evidence do they take this stance?
7: UKIP plan to double prison spaces. How do they propose to fund the building of new prisons and of keeping twice as many inmates? Who will take up these extra spaces? What crimes will become punishable by incarceration? Who will suffer from cuts made elsewhere to fund this?
8: UKIP is proposing "tens of billions" of tax cuts and had set out £77bn of cuts to public expenditure to deal with the deficit. Where will these cuts be made? After increased military and prison spending, the cuts in public spending will have to be a lot higher to compensate.
9: They wish to repeal the hunting ban. This appeals to a minority of people whereas the majority of the country supports the hunting ban. Can you guess which section of society would benefit from the repeal?

It seems to me that most of these policies were plucked from thin air to try and hide the fact that they are a one policy party. Perhaps, by answering these questions, you can change my mind?
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thebody · 28/07/2013 16:14

me and dh went to grammar schools and straight to work.

all 4 of my kids went to the local comp and 2 are graduates with degrees!

all manifestos are daft op. none are usually fulfilled.

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PdHeatonsingingfafafa · 28/07/2013 16:19

You see, claig, we've gotten to the root of it. I don't think you are racist or prejudiced in any way. However, with your comments about the DM, you have proven that you are simply unaware what what prejudice actually is. You see things that most people see as horribly offensive and you don't see it yourself. THAT is why you will vote UKIP.

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claig · 28/07/2013 16:26

Pd, I am like the majority of the country, and the Daily Mail is the country's second highest selling newspaper. I don't see as offensive what you see as offensive and if I thought the Daily Mail was offensive then I wouldn't read it.

I found the BBC commenator, John Inverdale's comments about Marion Bartoli highly offensive and I note that the BBC have not sacked him. I found A a Gill's comments about Mary Beard highly offensive, but they weren't in the Daily Mail. I don't remember reading anything like that in the Daily Mail.

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PdHeatonsingingfafafa · 28/07/2013 16:32

You didn't read Jan Moir's comments about Stephen Gately's death? Or their recent article about Mel Smith, the day after he died? Or Littlejohn's bullying of Lucy Meadows?

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PdHeatonsingingfafafa · 28/07/2013 16:35

I can link to them if you like?

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claig · 28/07/2013 16:37

I thought you were talking about mysogyny and those aren't examples of mysogyny.

I didn't read the original Jan Moir article but heard about it. I don't know about the Mel Smith article and haven't heard about that, and I did read the Littlejohn article.

Commentators are paid to express their thoughts and they do say things that some people find offensive. The Daily Mail used to have Julie Burchill as a commentator and she possibly offended some readers and I am sure that Hitchens sometimes offends some readers and Littlejohn too and other columnists too, but to some extent that is part of a free press with free speech.

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PdHeatonsingingfafafa · 28/07/2013 16:39

No. Free speech does not equate to hate speech.

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claig · 28/07/2013 16:40

I think you are exagerrating, because if it was hate speech, then they could be prosecuted for it.

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WetAugust · 28/07/2013 16:43

Looks like you did achieve the debate you claimed you wanted Pd.

Obviously you are not a UKIP supporter.

UKIP 's sole original policy was to leave the EU. There was no need for a manifesto as they did not intend to rule - just pass the necessary laws to revoke our EU membership and, having achieved that, they would disband and call an election.

Over the years it has evolved from a single cause party to having a full manifesto. Personally, I think it should have stuck as a one issue party.

I very much doubt there is any party in which its members are in 100% agreement with their manifesto. Indeed, I'd be worried if there were as it would suggest the members did very little free-thinking. So UKIP will have a lot of policies its members disagree with.

But the main, enduring policy is to leave the EU and none of the current 'big 3' are offering that to us.

So, if that is your primary concern, you have to vote for a minority party that also has that aim. Some of those parties are totally unpalatable e.g. BNP, Sin Fein, Monster Raving Loony, so the choice beyond UKIP is pretty limited.

You said you thought that many of UKIP's policies had been "plucked from thin air". In many instances they are traditional or former Conservative policies:


1: UKIP say they want an amicable divorce from the EU. How smoothly do they believe that can happen?

Relatively smoothly as we are fortunate in having retained the pound. The mechanism does exist to trigger an exit. That's one avenue that the EU hasn't yet totally sealed us from, so the British Parliament could vote to leave and not be over-ruled by Europe.

  1. UKIP want a 5 year hold on immigration. To do so, they think that it is essential to leave the EU as the EU allows citizens of member states to move freely. Ok, what happens to the 2.2 million Brits living in other EU nations? Do we force them to return? It has to work both ways.


It doesn't have to work both ways. Some countries may see the presence of British citizens as a positive benefit and allow them to stay. Nobody (except the EU) would 'force' them to return.

3: A flat tax rate can never work. I imagine this is why the party cannot decide whether or not they should have 1 rate or 2. Their 2010 proposal was a rate of 31% for everybody. That is evidently a major tax break for the rich whilst the poor pay more. Is this something you support?

I seem to remember that a flat rate was something the Liberals once supported. It's also common in other countries. Difficult to say if the rate is fair without knowing what the tax encompasses. are we talking about income tax or VAT or inheritance tax or capital gains tax? Or a flat rate for all of them?


4: A return to the grammar school education model would see communities being ripped in half and children unfairly separated. Who here thinks that is a good idea?

I think grammar schools are a good idea. I went to one. I sat along the daughters of train signal men and bus conductors. Some of those girls went to Oxbridge. They would not have achieved that if they had gone to my local comp these days. I doubt if it's had a single Oxbridge entrant in this millennium. Grammar schools do not rip communities in half. You only have to look back at some very prominent but poor people in the past who owe their achievements to the grammar school system. I'd go further - all schools should be grammar schools - there should be no place for the crappy education that kids received in their local comp.


5: UKIP want to increase defence spending to facilitate the building of extra warships and nuclear weapons. When a member or supporter asks why soldiers aren't paid more, be sure to also ask why they'd squander money on these projects?

As a former defence employee myself I'd say there was still quite a bit of fat left yet in the budget.

6: UKIP oppose the HS2 because of the damage it would do to the countryside. However, they also support fracking which would cause even greater damage. How can there be such contradiction? They also oppose manmade climate change. On what evidence do they take this stance?

I oppose HS2 and I also oppose fracking. But supporting fracking would not deter me from supporting a party that promised to leave the EU. I'm a bit of a climate change sceptic myself.

7: UKIP plan to double prison spaces. How do they propose to fund the building of new prisons and of keeping twice as many inmates? Who will take up these extra spaces? What crimes will become punishable by incarceration? Who will suffer from cuts made elsewhere to fund this?

Lots of questions to answer.
I presume that old prisons are costly to run compared to modern buildings - so saving fuel costs, guarding savings due to technology / design etc. As for who will take up the spaces and which crimes will be punishable by incarceration - that's up to sentencing policy. Who / what do you suggest?
I expect there's quite a bit of fat in the Home Office budget that could be better spent. I have a really bad feeling about funding Sky subscriptions for murderers.

8: UKIP is proposing "tens of billions" of tax cuts and had set out £77bn of cuts to public expenditure to deal with the deficit. Where will these cuts be made? After increased military and prison spending, the cuts in public spending will have to be a lot higher to compensate.

Any and every party will have to make "tens of billions" of cuts. Do you have any concept of the serious financial shit this country is in? Don't be so naïve.

9: They wish to repeal the hunting ban. This appeals to a minority of people whereas the majority of the country supports the hunting ban. Can you guess which section of society would benefit from the repeal?

I don't support hunting and am happy with the ban. But again, the primary and over-riding issue for me is leaving the EU.


I'm wondering why you felt the need to post your OP. I have a feeling it's a sort of focus group for one of the main 3 parties.

You need to understand that most of the attributes that permit a country to actually be a separate country are being lost or eroded by our EU membership e.g. the right to make our own laws (most are forced on us my EU) or the right to admit/remove people from this country - we no longer have this right.

We were well and truly conned by Heath into believing it was a benign trading association when he knew all along that its ultimate aim was the united states of Europe.
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PdHeatonsingingfafafa · 28/07/2013 16:51

I will break down your post in a second but I have to quickly point out that Sky TV is only available in publicly run prisons, not state run.

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PdHeatonsingingfafafa · 28/07/2013 16:53

Bte, I'm really not a focus group. You give me the impression that if one of the other parties decided that it would also leave the EU in its manifesto, you wouldn't vote for UKIP.

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claig · 28/07/2013 16:55

'Sky TV is only available in publicly run prisons'

Yes, but who is paying for it - the public or teh shareholders ofthe private companies?

While some old age pensioners can't afford Sky and were fined £100 for putting their bins out on the wrong day, the public pays for criminals to watch Sky and people say there is no waste and we can't cut taxes.

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Caster8 · 28/07/2013 16:57

Of course the op is not a UKIP supporter! She is not interested in debating the answers people give to her questions in the op.

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claig · 28/07/2013 16:58

Caster8, that's because I think she has no answers to them.

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WetAugust · 28/07/2013 17:06

I just want a palatable party that will guarantee to leave the EU so all that's available to me is UKIP.

I made a personal vow never to vote for anyone who voted for the Maastricht treaty. But most of them are no longer in politics.

Back in the 1970s the Green Party fielded a candidate in Bath. Oooh! We were very excited and rushed out to buy a copy of their manifesto. And spent the evening doubled with laughter as we tried to imagine how we'd get on when everything had returned to horse power and UK growth would aim to be negative in the future!

I think they've changed their views nowadays.

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claig · 28/07/2013 17:09

'I think they've changed their views nowadays.'

Are you sure?

I remember their Deputy on Andrew Neill's Daily politics a few years back, saying something like wanting zero growth and negative growth.

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BridgetBidet · 28/07/2013 17:14

Basically people who vote UKIP want less immigration and to leave the EU. If you look at opinion polls most people agree with this.

It matters pish to them that the rest of UKIPs policies are nuts. Which is why mainstream politicians who aren't mental should look at adopting these two policies.

Personally I want less immigration and far better education so our own unemployed youth can be trained properly to fill the gaps that immigrants currently fill.

But I'm sure I will be told British youth are too stupid and idle to do this. Despite the fact that the self same people who say this would go nuts if you said this about Jamaicans or the Irish.

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RatUpADrainpipe · 28/07/2013 17:15

Well said WetAugust - a superbly written post.

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claig · 28/07/2013 17:16

the thing about UKIP that is now revolutionarty is that their appeal has extended beyond their anti-EU policy, or they would never have achieved 25% of the public vote in the local elections.

What has happened is that the public has passed the 'tipping point' and this has led to a 'catastrophic climate change' for the old boys' parties and their backers and there has been a 'global warming' in politics as the revolution takes hold and ordinary people abandon those who took them for granted and called them either bigots or 'swivel-eyed loons'.

We will have to wait and see if UKIP can build on this climate change and increase their carbon footprint with big money donors and create more energy than a windmill in a force nine gale.

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RatUpADrainpipe · 28/07/2013 17:17

Basically people who vote UKIP want less immigration and to leave the EU. If you look at opinion polls most people agree with this.

That will be why our whole household voted for them. I couldn't give a stuff for the rest of their manifesto !

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BridgetBidet · 28/07/2013 17:28

Claig, I really disagree. I think that an awful lot of people basically want Labour's policies except for high immigration and membership of the EU.

They don't want the right wing fiscal, educational, defence or NHS policy. But they are so desperate to get lower immigration and leave the EU that they will overlook the other stupid policies

Incidentally back in the day Labour used to be very anti EU because of the effect it had on the working class via lowering of wages.

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claig · 28/07/2013 17:41

Bridget, I know what you are saying, but I think youa are wrong.

The majority of people who voted for UKIP in the local elections were former Tory voters. There were many Labour voters too and brand new voters who had never voted before, but the majority were of teh Tory persuasion and want lower taxes and traditional Tory policies together with leaving the EU and less immigration.

Hunt has done amazing things with the NHS and his standing up for the mistreatment of patients will have turned many more people over to the Tories. When Hunt took New Labour on at the despatch box over their record with the NHS, our left wing TV media predicatably played the old card "don't make it political", "don't be beastly to Labour", but that crap won't wash with the public, because thousands of people died in our hospitals, and we need an open discussion of why and bruising any politicians' feelings is of no significance when getting to the bottom of why it happened.

Come the next election, the real battle for UKIP will be can they hold on to the Tory voters who switched to them and will they dent the Tories chances.

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WetAugust · 28/07/2013 17:41

Basically people who vote UKIP want less immigration and to leave the EU. If you look at opinion polls most people agree with this.

Wrong.

Basically the people who vote UKIP want to leave the EU (for a whole host of issues including boring old sovereignty) and in doing so will automatically reduce immigration by not having to accommodate any EU citizen who wishes to come here to live.

And that's it in a nut shell. UKIP is not immigration-driven. it's sovereignty driven.

Two very different drivers.

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claig · 28/07/2013 17:43

The majority of councillors who have switched to join UKIP are probably disgruntled Tories too, and apparently Tory party membership under Cameron has fallen and I wouldn't be surprised if many of them have joined UKIP too.

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WetAugust · 28/07/2013 17:51

I have not joined UKIP so don't know what the former voting choices of their current members ever was, however I did play a role in the Referendum Party which was attempting to secure a vote on EU membership, so basically the same ideology as UKIP regarding the EU issue.

The majority of Referendum Party people were overwhelming Tory and hard-core Tory - the sort that used to make hefty donations to the Tory Party. Quite a few small business owners too. Hardly any Cs and none below. Some had made real sacrifices in leaving the Tories and had lost long-term Tory friends in doing so. Nonetheless the EU was something they felt so strongly about they were prepared to forgo that part of their social lives.

I imagine UKIP membership is similarly composed.

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