To not want to see or speak to my Dad again?

[WonderBarbara]

Once again, as per usual, a visit to my parents house has ended up in a huge row, my kids upset and me fuming beyond belief.
All had been going ok until lunchtime, when my complete insensitive cock of a dad, served up sausage and mash, to my Dcs, with complete knowledge that they do not eat pork, since DH is Muslim and we are bringing our children up (loosely) in the faith. Naturally this pissed me off, but I just took the sausages from their plate and calmly reminded my parents they don't eat pork. My Dad then started going on that there was nothing else and he wasn't going to cook them anything else. I said, that's absolutely fine, it won't do them any harm to have just mash and beans, they don't need meat. Dad went on that mash and beans wasn't a proper meal and they needed a meat. I told him that was rubbish, and they would be fine.
Cue then the age old arguement that practically ensues every time we go around (and the reason why we don't visit very often) right in front of the Dcs. Of course I can't write all down here, but to summarise, dad trumped his favourite line about how it's not fair that they can't eat pork because of DH, and it's not fair that we haven't let them choose for themselves, and that my dc are deprived of a normal life because I am letting DH rule over us and its not fair that "his side" always gets priority.
I told him that when the do are old enough to choses for themselves then that's fine, but for now out of respect to DH we are a pork free family and I would appreciate if he did not speak that way in front of the Dcs, while they were eating.
Dad then took some sausage and said to dd1 (7) "you want to try some don't you, you want to see whats it like?" To which dd replied no. He then started having a go at dd1 saying do you know why you can't eat it? You don't even understand why you can't eat normally do you? it's just sausage silly girl it won't kill you. Just taste it" and tried to force it to her mouth. She looked petrified.
At this point I lost it. i said to my mum are you gonna let him torment my daughter like that? As per usual my mum said she wasn't getting involved (she never does) and I told my Dad to get the hell away from my Dcs. He went on about the dc have to Learn when in Rome to live like the Romans and at our house they will eat what they are given. I told him that won't be a problem because we won't be back. We then left. When I got in the car, dd1 told me that when I was looking for ds's shoes, my Dad had given dd2(2) some of the sausage in her mouth.

I actually feel sick, i want to just burst into tears but I hate the DC seeing me upset. Me and Dad have never had a great relationship tbh since my teens. he has never really supported my marriage, always makes a huge effort with and clearly favours my Dsis's DH, and always makes snide comments about our parenting. He spent the first two years of DD1s life calling her by her middle name because he couldn't accept that we had given her an Arabic first name.

The only good thing I can say about him is that he is usually very good to my DCs, and he was good to us when we were young.

Anyway, I now have just been comforting DD1, who was went into her bedroom and cried as soon as we got in because "we are never going to see gran and grampy again", and she has asked me why we are always arguing, I don't know how to explain it to her.

I know it's probably extreme to ban the Dcs from seeing their grandparents, but I actually can't face speaking to my Dad again, until he gives a damn good apology, but I have never heard him apologise in his life.

So, for those of you who have had the perseverance to read to the end, AIBU?

Yes, thank you, Moet, I'm familiar with gelatin. I didn't see anything in the OP mentioning the children being allowed to eat Haribo or not, which is why I questioned Trifle's bringing it up.

i probably can't really understand as I am not religous. I would draw a line only where health is concerned (i.e allergies). It seemed just odd to me that the op is quiet relaxed on prayers for example but chooses a strict line where a piece of meat is concerned.
I think the dad is frustrated about 'loosing' his daughter to a culture/habits he is not very familiar with. I kindof understand that this may not be easy on him. (have mixt nationality marriage myself). This obviously does not mean force feeding or shouting or anything else in this manner is ok. Goes without saying really. Granma probably thinks the same as her husband but leaves the shouting to him.

I think you need to find a middle ground here and avoid accusations both ways. This is a lot about hidden feelings and frustrations of op's dad.

Good luck

I now put my tin hat on and dive for cover.

I don't think you have to find a middle ground whatsoever- you as a family don't eat pork (just as a family might be vegetarian/vegan) and you don't expect to be served it and then harangued when you don't want to eat it or let your children eat it. How incredibly disrespectful, and it's not forgetfulness as someone else suggested, we have some of our children's friends who don't eat pork and it's extremely easy for us to remember this and respectfully not serve it to them or tempt them to do so.

I don't think the OP's dad's frustrations and feelings are hidden whatsoever- he doesn't like the OP's husband or his religion. However, when our children grow up we have to accept their choices, indeed support them unless they are actively harmful, including supporting their marriages if they are cross-cultural. I have at least one close friend who has married a Muslim and her family are extremely supportive and very close to their grandchildren, because in the long term they can see that not eating pork is neither here not there in the grand scheme of things but having loving ongoing relationships with their grandchildren is the priority.

The Op's dad is angry as he has lost control, similar to when people used to never speak to their children again if they were Protestant and married a Catholic, it's all about bigoted small-minded prejudice and preferring to prioritize that over the happiness of your own children.

I think your plan sounds excellent, you and your husband are the family unit, you need to come together to calmly defend your own family and if they want to join in and take part, lovely, if they can't accept you and him together or your children, that's their choice. Only meet on neutral territory or your own house.

Let's remove the religious/cultural aspect.

What if the OP and her family were vegetarians?

It's a choice they have made which is valid, and what they believe in. It won't hurt a living soul (literally).

That man has no more right to shove a sausage in thé young child's mouth then, than if it were due to a religious choice.

I'd stop going over there, certainly NEVER leave the children unattended there, and only allow the parents to visit at MY house.

I might even consider pretending to have gone completely VEGAN and insist on cooking the same for everyone!

Bigots and bullies get my vegetarian mock-goat!

Can we also agree to NOT demonising an animal? Pigs are pigs and are important in the greater scheme of things. Pork is pork, some people DO eat it, some don't. It's not to be reviled, or feared, it's just an animal.

Some cultures eat rats. I'd choose pork over a rodent any day of the week.

As far as the consumption of pork goes in islam, the general 'rule' is not to eat it, BUT if there is noting else, nothing at all, there IS an allowance to eat it. Just as fasting is not necessary if you're travelling between cities, or over 50km.

Alcohol however is always off the list.

Apparently but that's another thread.

Live and let live, respect the choices of others as long as no harm is being done.

YANBU OP, your dad is awful. Really. I suggest you take a break from him, and restate your boundaries.

YADNBU. YOur father is so out of order its ridiculous. Whatever your choices for your dcs they are yours and he has to bite his tongue.

We had situation in my family where a muslim married in and refused to allow the other 14 of us have sausage with our christmas lunch at our house because it was against his religion. The only problem we had was we knew he got a christian girl pregnant out of marriage, took drugs, drank and cheated on her, We still held our tongues and went without sausages at our christian celebration

Hissy, gelatin is only halal if it comes from vegetables/is synthetic or is from the halal meat. So the type of gelatine you find in the non halal haribos is not halal! However you can buy halal haribos!

YANBU
You're 'D'F can disapprove as much as he likes, but it is not a fight to have in front of, or involving your DCs.

You do not serve food to children they are not allowed at home. Whether the reason is religious, moral or a pathological fear of BSE.

If a child of around 11 or older chooses to disregard the rules at home, that's different and I wouldn't say anything, but I wouldn't encourage them.

The DDs Christian friends must have gathered I think religion is a pile of rubbish, but I was careful what I said when they were small.

Your dad behaved terribly and has an unacceptable attitude to you, your parenting and your children. Tbh if my dad treated me this way I would cut him out completely. I'm impressed that you're intending to give him another chance to explain himself and try again, but I hope you're not being too optimistic, given that this is not an isolated incident.

When something haram changes to a different form (including pig to gelatin) it becomes halal already.

It's in thé Koran. I lived in a predominantly Muslim country for a number of years. This subject was discussed as well as the time it takes to cook with alcohol for it to be absorbed and without effect...at great length. The subject of gelatin remains controversial, but mostly through lack of research/understanding/panic. Bottom line, as it's form has changed it really isn't forbidden anymore.

There are non meat versions of gelatin available.

And this is a non-issue as far as the thread is concerned.

The F is rude, racist and disrespectful to his own family.

Hissy, that makes sense. I believe these laws were laid down to protect from food poisoning. The cooking conditions in the days this began weren't exactly fan oven with reliable temperature. If you look at the Muslim and Jewish food laws, there are a few things that could cause food poisoning if not cooked properly, pork being one of them.

I have a friend who is married to a muslim and they bring up their child accordning to muslim food laws, not sure how strict they are about everything else. I would absolutely support that, should they visit me.

I think it would be a good idea to talk to your parents about it and make it clear that if they want you to continue to go to their house, they must never again attempt to force pork on your dc and any argument about it in front of the dc is inappropriate. If they can't agree to that, then avoid seeing them at your house. I'm vegetarian and have brought my ds up vegetarian and would be shocked if someone tried to force him to eat meat. Make it clear to your df that not eating pork as a family is your choice and your h's and by trying to force pork on your dc your df was trying to make it his choice when it should be the parents' choice. But I don't think I'd trust your dad now anyway - he could serve up a stew and hide pork in it and pretend it's not there.

As someone else mentioned, your comment to your dm about "are you gonna let him torment your granddaughter" was odd. You are the parent and you were present so I would expect you to prevent him forcing pork on your dc, not your dm. Obviously it would help if your dm took your side in general on the issue though. I also wondered how it got to the point of your df serving up a meal with you not knowing what he was cooking. I'd expect to know what he was cooking for my dc, particularly when you know your diet is different from theirs.

As you say your df never apologises, I don't think you've much chance of getting an apology, but you can insist that either he respects your dietary choice when you visit or you will not visit.

Op, you are doing a wonderful thing by attempting to keep lines of communication open still despite such an awful situation. Indeed, is also a requirement in islam to maintain ties of kinship.

Complete side-track here - i do agree with hissy regarding gelatine, but still cannot help eating only halal haribos!!! . In fact, i am eating halal haribo teddies as i type! And yummy they are too!

I interpreted OP's appeal to her mother more as an attempt to see whose side her mother would take, basically asking her mum "do you really agree with him on this". And probably it was asked with OP already knowing the answer - that her mum would continue to enable her dad's bad behaviour by "not getting involved".

I too would not be visiting anytime soon. Agree with those saying that OP's F wouldn't feed spare ribs to a vegetarian and her kids on the basis of "when in Rome" etc.

I think not seeing or speaking to him again might be a bit extreme.

His behaviour was absolutely not acceptable don't get me wrong.

I would try and speak to him when you are feeling less (justifiably) angry. Explain to him that this is how you are raising your children and if he reacts badly or pretends to accept then later acts in a similar way, cut off contact.

Perhaps also speak with him about his lack of acceptance re you DH at the same. Calmly and patiently. Again if he reacts badly, cut him loose. Your DH sounds like a top bloke who doesn't deserve to not be accepted.

A lot of Muslim children go to my dc school. They take part in the school nativity and go to the church services at easter and Christmas. They never eat haribos or similar gelatine sweets. In fact my dc often get sweets passed to them that their dc have been given and they can't have!

OP, I just wanted to say that in some ways I am jealous , your DH sounds an absolute gem and you are very lucky that he is so understanding and tolerant of your DF.

YANBU YANBU YANBU. And SO impressed with your last post - DH sounds extremely level headed and tolerant and I think together you are handling this very well. Just so sorry that your DF is such an arse.

lemon is right, it is a cultural thing. He wants the children brought up like he was, in his culture. He feels as if his culture has lost and the children follow a different culture. He thinks he can stop it, but of course he can't.

One of these days, he will eventually probably come to accept that the kids are brought up with different beliefs, but it will probably take him some time.

It's the old saying "you can't teach an old dog new tricks"

"Agree with those saying that OP's F wouldn't feed spare ribs to a vegetarian and her kids on the basis of "when in Rome" etc."

I think he would, because it is about following how he himself was brought up.

The same thing probably happens the other way around too, where some muslim parents would not probably want their grandchildren to eat pork.

It's not nice, but it is about culture and it is a pretty common human reaction to prefer that grandchildren be brought up in one's own culture with its customs and rules.

And there was nothing wrong in bringing your mother into it. You hoped that she would intervene and make him see sense. but she knows him well enough to know that he won't change his mind easily over this, since this is pretty core to his own beliefs and culture. She proabably knows that to confront him oenly about it will just escalate it and anger him even more. She probably does try to make him see sense ofline when he is in a calmer, more amenable mood.

It's not about pork. The ops father is not showing respect. That must feel hurtful.