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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

To want to make myself believe in god?

999 replies

HopHopHopSkip · 25/07/2013 22:55

I have always been very logical and so despite going to a Christian primary school, having a very religious mum(though not in a pushy way) and reading the bible when I was younger(the story version I was a bit of a book worm) I have never really got my head around how god could be possible.

But I really wish I had the extra "something" that some people seem to find by believing in god. I'm probably not making much sense, but I wish I could get myself to feel like there's somebody watching out, that there's something after death, that everything happens for what'd ultimately a good reason/what's meant to be so on.

AIBU to try going to church for a bit even though I don't believe in god? Or am I just being silly, is it something you can't 'make' yourself feel?

OP posts:

headinhands · 01/08/2013 10:05

Atrcts, so your answer is option b then. I'm not sure how the possibility of them not being small children makes any difference for you. You've probably come to terms with the other young children that were killed under gods direction in the OT so why do you need to worry about the age of these individuals? Either way, wether they died or didn't, 6 or 16, god sent bears to attack them. In my book setting wild animals on people who disagree with or tease you is not the way to go about things. And as for saying 'well I bet they learned their lesson.' ??? What god did there was terrorism!! I wish I could grab a Christian at the point they discover these stories and shout. 'Your morality says this behaviour is vile. Why can't you trust your own judgment of what is moral? Why do you have to make yourself accept something so disgusting. Isn't that worrying for you? That even when your own morality warning alarm goes off you will find a way to acquiesce 'because it was god so it must be okay' But it's your ability to decide what is moral or not that allowed you to make a judgement on god in the first place before you became a Christian!

claig · 01/08/2013 10:07

worldgonecrazy, I agree with you that I can''t believe in the God of the Old Testament, but Jesus Christ is nothing like him.

The New Testament and the Old Testament seem miles apart to me.

CuChullain · 01/08/2013 10:07

@ madhairday

Well again, this is the contradiction, there are plenty of passages in the bible that demonstrate god to be a pretty nice bloke, unfortunately these are offset, mostly in the old testament, of some seriously unpleasant behaviour. It dont like the 'pick and mix' approach where people latch on to the nice bits and casually dismiss the nasty bits. "Oh thats the Old Testament, very few people these days really believe that is the literal truth". One hundred years ago the Old Testament was seen as the fact, less so now, in one hundred years time will the new testament been seen as guidelines only?

atrcts · 01/08/2013 10:08

No, worldgonecrazy - I didn't just find a reader who says that; I have a concise dictionary for original meanings in the direct Greek/Hebrew translations. It helps to see the correct meaning of a word, because different bibles use different English words that give a similar meaning, however similar isn't always close enough to the original and that's why it's good to study it out

madhairday · 01/08/2013 10:09

But there are more OT passages about God's love and compassion than there are about nasty incidences. This fact is often overlooked, but is true. MOre about God's concern for the marginalised and the poor, the orphans, widows, those who are oppressed. This is what God's nature is in the OT.

Niminy above wrote an excellent post about the dawning realisation of the Israelites about living as holy people, and the story of the OT being the story of that journey. The OT also reflects the barbaric times it was set in, but instead of simply going along with that, God stands out as compassionate and merciful.

I don't even pretend to be able to explain away certain difficult passages, but do know a fair bit about exploring context and about setting story to the time rather than to our 21st C western mindset. It's not comparable to how we live and think now.

worldgonecrazy · 01/08/2013 10:11

headinhands What you wrote at Thu 01-Aug-13 10:05:15 - I really wish Mumsnet had a really big "LIKE" button. But it doesn't, so have these instead .

claig · 01/08/2013 10:14

"Either way, wether they died or didn't, 6 or 16, god sent bears to attack them."

Evidence please?

worldgonecrazy · 01/08/2013 10:14

atrcts yes, I am aware of the different meanings, and different translations. But everyone draws their own meaning from the text. For instance the use of the word "witch" in "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live". The Greek word means poisoner, not witch. That didn't stop several hundred thousand people dying or being tortured for being different did it? Where was your God when those people, who were often the poor, the widowed and the disenfranchised, being murdered horribly in his name? How come he didn't choose to send the equivalent of bears out of the wood to deal with those commiting the most terrible acts all in his name?

atrcts · 01/08/2013 10:15

headinhands - you said: "We can't use our own human ideas of goodness to judge God" as your option b.

I disagree that my post said anything about judging God or using our own ideas.

Are you putting words in my mouth again?!!!!

The context of what I was saying is:

I was talking
To you
About your point a and point b, offering a point c you may have overlooked
I was exploring the precise interpretation of languages for the best accuracy. A dictionary that translates the language the bible was written in gives a fine-tuning view of the English translations, which often offers several words with similar meanings which (guess what!) can be taken out of context

madhairday · 01/08/2013 10:17

But you could say the same about those simply picking out the nasty bits - the whole god is misogynistic, homophobic etc etc kind of rhetoric. Are they also cherry picking, or are they right because nasty bits must be more right than nice bits?

The character of God, it seems to be, is being slowly revealed through the OT - the prophets highlight such characteristics as compassion and mercy over and against wrathful and vengeful - and is then fully revealed in Jesus. The OT is written by people, people of the time, not writing as historians but writing an account of a journey, of a dawning realisation. It seems to me that they ascribed an awful lot of things to God which later seem incomparable to the God they come to know and who reveals Godself in Jesus.

Claig, I'm fascinated by this Gnostic thing. I know a bit about the early gnostics but don't think I'd realised they thought the OT God was not the NT God. How do they come to this conclusion, when Jesus claims many of the OT prophecies refer to himself, and when he himself is a devout Jew worshipping and studying in the temple?

atrcts · 01/08/2013 10:17

worldonecrazy I am on my way out for now, but please provide me your dictionary reference and the verse you speak of regarding witches, so I can look into it myself too. I would now but I can't as I have a full-on day, so it will have to wait.

CheerfulYank · 01/08/2013 10:17

To answer just the OP , of course YANBU. Check it out, see how you feel.

I have always been quite Goddy, despite not being raised to be. Since I was a very small girl God has just been something I've...experienced, sort of? There's nothing to believe or not believe in, It's just there, like gravity.

My levels of and commitments to my belief have come in waves (when I had terrible PND after my son's birth I hardly believed at all, and it was awful) and when I really, fully feel God and participate in the church it really is "the peace which passeth understanding."

I don't think it necessarily has to come from a religious place. Some people feel that way in nature, or helping others, being with loved ones, etc. Christianity is very important to me but I think everyone needs to find their own path. Best of luck on yours! :)

headinhands · 01/08/2013 10:20

I don't think it happened myself but I thought Christians believe god had something to do with the bible being put together Don't you?

headinhands · 01/08/2013 10:23

When I pre-emptively gave the alternatives that Christian posters would offer I wasn't referring to you specifically atcts. It's a well worn part in discussing such OT barbarism. And I still say your answer is option b.

claig · 01/08/2013 10:23

"Claig, I'm fascinated by this Gnostic thing. I know a bit about the early gnostics but don't think I'd realised they thought the OT God was not the NT God. How do they come to this conclusion, when Jesus claims many of the OT prophecies refer to himself, and when he himself is a devout Jew worshipping and studying in the temple?"

I don't know, I only found out about them a few weeks ago after listening to Melvyn Bragg's In Our Time Radio 4 programme on them.

I have bought some books on them and have bought the Nag Hammadi scriptures discovered in Egypt in 1945 and will have to try and get to the bottom of it all. But apparently they are not easy to understand, since their writings are cloaked in parable and old long Greek words like "The Hypostasis of the Archons" and stuff like that. So one thing's for sure, it won't be an easy journey, and of course, at the end, I may find that I think that they were wrong.

claig · 01/08/2013 10:25

"I don't think it happened myself but I thought Christians believe god had something to do with the bible being put together Don't you?"

Not the Old Testament for me. I prefer the New Testament.
Having said that, there is lots of wisdom in the Old Testament, but also, for me, lots of stuff that I do not believe too.

headinhands · 01/08/2013 10:27

Madhair I thought god was perfect and just and love etc. Do you have a dh? He's probably alright isn't he. Probably very lovely sometimes even. What if you found out he had once deliberately set 2 wild animals on a group of children who made fun of him. Wouldn't that one bit of information alone make a huge difference to your opinion of him?

headinhands · 01/08/2013 10:28

Why oh why would the real god think it wise to tag his real book on the end of a book about such a nasty god. Even I have more wisdom than that

claig · 01/08/2013 10:32

"Why oh why would the real god think it wise to tag his real book on the end of a book about such a nasty god. Even I have more wisdom than that"

Because maybe it wasn't God's real book, and maybe it was written by men.

If you believe it was God's real book, then it sounds like you believe in the God of the Old Testament, in which case, why all these questions about Him?

headinhands · 01/08/2013 10:32

So Mad. You think they were in error when they attributed the bears to god? Why didn't he say 'whoa whoa whoa, don't put THAT in.' Why would he be happy for them to attribute that action to him in his biography. Wouldn't you have something to say if a guy writing your memoirs started attributing all sorts of heinous crimes to you?

headinhands · 01/08/2013 10:34

So claig, you think the NT isn't god inspired either. And both books are just men trying to cobble a religion together. Well then we agree on that :)

claig · 01/08/2013 10:34

Sorry, was referring to the Old Testament as being the real book above, but realise that you actually meant the New Testament.

But even what is in the New Testament was decided on by men, and they left out other Christian Gospels which they decided were not true. So men have made these decisions, not God in my opinion.

madhairday · 01/08/2013 10:37

I think God inspired the biblical writers, yes. I do not think that they sat and wrote down God's words like some kind of enchanted spell. Inspired the writers to tell the story.

Interesting point about that bears story, if you set it in context what is really happening is a crowd of young men (not children) yelling abuse at Elisha because he just cleansed their water supply. Possibly because this meant several were put out of their business of selling clean water at overinflated prices, so oppressing the villagers. They would not be so happy at E coming and making sure all had access to water.

A crowd of leery blokes vs some sweet little children? Seems more like E's life was in danger here.

As for God sending the bears - the author does not even claim this! He says Elisha cursed them in God's name - but neither says the bears came as a result or that 'God sent them.' Just that they came out of the woods. This may just mean that they simply came out of the woods. Usually, the bible is pretty strong in saying God did something - but in this case there is no mention. Odd!

claig · 01/08/2013 10:37

I don't believe that God told men what to write, but I believe that they were inspired by wisdom given by God. But I believe that men are fallible, and that includes every single human being, however great or grand they may think or claim that they are, and so I do not believe that any book can contain teh whole truth on God.

headinhands · 01/08/2013 10:39

Claig. So you think the bible could have lies in it?

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