To want to make myself believe in god?

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I have always been very logical and so despite going to a Christian primary school, having a very religious mum(though not in a pushy way) and reading the bible when I was younger(the story version I was a bit of a book worm) I have never really got my head around how god could be possible.

But I really wish I had the extra "something" that some people seem to find by believing in god. I'm probably not making much sense, but I wish I could get myself to feel like there's somebody watching out, that there's something after death, that everything happens for what'd ultimately a good reason/what's meant to be so on.

AIBU to try going to church for a bit even though I don't believe in god? Or am I just being silly, is it something you can't 'make' yourself feel?

headinhands. I wish I could hug you, though I suspect you are not the type of person that is too fond of hugs.A touch on the back perhaps.

I think all these questions are a front for what has gone on in your life.

We are here to listen if you want us to. No matter how ranting and raving you want or need to be about God.
I cant say I would be the one to help you through it all, as I will not have gone through what you have. But I can listen, and maybe others can help you.

Of course not, it would be impossible as they contradict each other!

Either you die once in this life and live eternally elsewhere (bible) or you die and return through reincarnation (Buddhism).

Either you can work your way to God (most religions) or you can't because is is a free gift (bible).

Either there is one God (bible) or there are many gods (Hinduism)

And so it goes on.

No worries headinhands - I appreciate your honesty

Atrcts. I just can't get my head round gods change of personality. I understand that people and cultures change but not god. From condoning the stoning of rape victims and children to being all love and forgiveness. That is just not on and no one can explain it away so far.

"That is just not on and no one can explain it away so far."

I have explained it. It is a different God. But not everyone will agree.

What are you talking about when you say stoning rape victims and children? Can you be more specific (if you refer to the bible maybe chapter and verse so I can read what you're talking about).

Although to be fair not being able to get my head round the personality change is not the biggest problem, it's more to do with no evidence.

Deuteronomy 22:23 If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her;
22:24 Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you.

Deuteronomy 21:18 If you have a "stubborn and rebellious son," then you and the other men in your neighborhood "shall stone him with stones that he die."

"it's more to do with no evidence"

The evidence is all around you. The beauty of nature, the songs of birds and the colur of flowers, grass and trees. the ryhme, the reason, the meaning, the beauty stares at you from every corner and shouts the message that God is in the air, seemingly far away, but ever near. The evidence is in goodness and kindness and love that fill the empty void. The evidence is in the thinking universe, the beauty of creation and the meaning in every thought and sound.

All you have to do is tune in to receive it and open your heart and your eyes will see it.

And that's without the 2 Kings 2 shenanigans

How is nature evidence for a god?

'How is nature evidence for a god?'

Because it is his creation. Without God, it would not be.

22 “If a man is found lying with a marriedwoman, then both of them shall die, the man who lay with the woman, and the woman ; thus you shall purgethe evil from Israel. 23 “If there is a girl who is avirgin engaged to a man, and another man findsher in the city and lies with her, 24 then you shallbring them both out to the gate of that city and you shall stone them to death ; the girl, because*she did not cry out in the city, and the man,because he has violated his neighbor’s wife. Thus you shall purge the evil from among you. 25 “But if in the field the man finds the girl who isengaged, and the man forces her and lies with her, then only the man who lies with her shall die. 26 “But you shall do nothing to the girl ; there isno sin in the girl worthy of death, for just as a manrises against his neighbor and murders him, so isthis case. 27 “When he found her in the field, theengaged girl cried out, but there was no one tosave her. 28 “If a man finds a girl who is a virgin,who is not engaged, and seizes her and lies with her and they are discovered, 29 then the manwho lay with her shall give to the girl’s father fiftyshekels of silver, and she shall become his wifebecause he has violated her; he cannotdivorceher all his days.

There are 4 distinct situations here but only one of them would actually be considered “rape” or violation. Let’s analyze them one by one.

1. The man and woman are caught in the act of adultery. The woman is married and is caught having sexual relations with a man who is not her husband. She is to be put to death and so is the man with whom she was sinning. This protects the victim of this entire situation, the woman’s husband. Who knows what diseases she will bring home to him after sleeping around. This will purge the evil from the land. It will also set an example for those who might consider adultery in the future. There is no rape here.

2. The woman is engaged (which according to God is the same as marriage) and is caught having sexual relations with a man who is not her future husband (before the wedding when sex is forbidden). She is not raped because she is in the city (literally public area) and does not cry out for help. This is a case of consensual sex. She is not raped but willingly participates in the act. She and the man are to be put to death to protect the victim, the future husband, as well as purge evil from among the people.

3. This is the only case of rape in this entire passage, and God severely punishes the rapist while protecting the victim. The woman was taken by force and she cried out but there was no one there to rescue her. She is raped. Once the man is caught, then he is put to death but nothing is done to the woman because she has done nothing wrong. If we applied God’s Law today, there would no longer be men who commit multiple rapes. It is hard to create another rape victim when you are 6 feet in the ground where you should be. Since we do not, we have an entire society at risk of being victimized by rape (usually multiple counts). God punishes the guilty and protects the victims and the innocent people. We protect the criminals today and leave the innocent people of society susceptible to rape and rapists.

4. This is a case of consensual sex between 2 people who are not engaged to anyone. This would be compared to today’s one night stand, or cohabitation. When they are discovered (probably by her expanding belly) the man must go to the girl’s father, ask for forgiveness, and ask for her hand in marriage. If the father agrees, he must marry her (so she will not be a victim, accused of adultery) and stay married to her all the days of his life. She was not raped, she went willingly. The problem is in the word “seized” of verse 28. The original word is trapped, but not necessarily by force. It could be translated as manipulated (with words and promises). If it were rape, like in the previous case, then the man would be put to death. Since it is not rape, he deceived her or manipulated her to come to bed with him, and he is not put to death.

We can clearly see from this passage that God does not condone rape, in fact, He condemns it. He punishes the criminal and protects the victim. Our modern society, which claims to know more than God, protects the criminal and punishes the victim. Simple study of the Bible clears up all the problems. If you are a victim of rape, God is on your side.

Without the seed, there would be no tree. Without God's spark, the universe would not be.

But don't you understand claig, I have used the same logic as you have used to determine that other religions aren't the way, to decide that Christianity isn't the way. Yes, they all contain nice bits and wisdom but there is no supernatural element behind it.

Talk me through the thought process you used to decide that Islam, while containing some good wisdom, is not real or true or whatever.

God had different laws: moral, civil etc. this law was a civil one.

It doesn't say how old the son would be, and whether it was ever carried out or just a preventative threat. we need to be careful not to add what is not there in the first place

There are incidences of stonings in the bible but none recorded of minors. Again, we need to be careful not to add what is not there in the first place

Sons were supposed to obey their parents as adults too, not just til 16/18 like it is with us today. It could be talking of the older 'sons' we need to be careful not to add what is not there in the first place

And look at how the other ditch is our society today? Our prisons are full of sons (and daughters) that rebelled and had no fear as a deterant.

Having said that, i'm glad to be in the age of Grace rather than Law!

Rape and the stoning of rape victims
When to stone your whole family
Stoning your children
Of course, slavery is condoned in the bible
And biblical views on women's place are a bit dodgy too

So you think stoning adulterers was appropriate? How about god said, 'look, there's these things called sti's, you need to do this and that to stop disease spreading.' he could have given them basic science lessons about general disease prevention like hand washing. Explained bacteria and viruses etc. I just can't imagine that stoning people who have sex outside marriage is ever acceptable. And it worried me that some are able to read that and not be appalled.

headinhands personality change in what respect?

That dispensations changed?

Or just that the weather changes?

Personality change as in requiring animal sacrifice and lists of who is to be stoned to then asking us to turn the other cheek. that's a big shift for an all knowing eternal god.

Exactly headinhands because the same God did think to give the Jews lots of other information about how to stay disease free, such as avoiding pork and shellfish. How come he got stumped by the STIs?

And Deuteronomy 22 does suggest stoning for rape because there may be many reasons why a woman might not cry out for help whilst being raped. But of course, it's the woman's fault for choosing to be raped rather than murdered or beaten.

The Bible does not stand up to either logic or common sense. But then, neither do most religious texts. Religion defies rationality.

The Gnostics say that God can only ever be two of three things, either all knowing, all powerful or all loving. He can never be three of those things at once because of the nature of creation (back to that eye worm a pp mentioned!)

Why are you glad to be in the age of grace and not law?

STI's are still prevalent in today's society, despite education (even in schools, so starts very young).

My friend became a newly appointed chlamydia specialist school nurse a couple of years ago!

But I agree it seems harsh to stone a person for adultery and thats why I said I am glad to live in this era. Although if you were married to someone who cheated on you, you might have different ideas!?!

The thing is, I know there are some ways I'd be much less forgiving that God, and other ways much more lenient. I suspect it's largely to do with how you're raised and our current society is very permissive, so harsh seems even harsher.

The shifts you mention are in completely different dispensations. That's why they're different. And they will be again in the future.

Back to kids knowing better than their parents