To think parents should teach their children how to behave round dogs

[Xihha]

There have been a few posts lately about people needing to control their dogs more (and I agree, if you cant control our dog and clean up after it then you shouldn't have a dog imo), but is it unreasonable to expect parents to teach children to be a bit more careful round dogs?

Whilst walking my dog (on his lead) a child who looked about 10 ran up and stuck his head in my dogs face to make a fuss of him whilst i was picking up doggys poo, without checking if it was ok, there have been other times kids have just walked up and started pulling doggy around, this sort of thing happens a lot, especially in the summer when there are more kids out playing and the parents rarely say anything about it.

It's not really an issue with my great soppy lump of a dog because he loves kids and will put up with anything for a bit of fuss but shouldn't these kids know that you should check with the owners before approaching strange dogs and that even a nice dog can get pissed of if you start pulling it around?

for the record I am more than happy to teach my DD to respect animals, that she should never hurt a dog, or what she might do that might hurt a dog.

But to have to teach her how to respond to being approached by dogs off the lead, or how to respond to being snarled or bitten by a dog she wasn't bothering really makes me feel sick.

It isn't her fault that other people have chosen to bring potentially dangerous animals into the places she plays in (none of the local playgrounds are dog free although some of them are supposed to be...). So now she has to be burdened with the extra knowledge and responsibility and risk, and for what? So that a minority of other people can get their faces licked and slobbered over?

'Surely if anyone makes the decision to share their life with a breed of animal known to have killed children, that it quite seriously their problem and not mine?'

Humans kill far more children than dogs do, are you children forbidden interaction with all people outside their family group too?

Cars kill far more children than dogs do, are they forbidden to accept lifts?

My son was chased by dogs (repeatedly) because every time one came within 50 yards of him he squealed, raised his arms in the air and jumped about, at which stage the dogs became interested 'ooh look that boy wants to play' and so they came over the play. At which stage he ran off an the dogs followed playfully. 'Oh look he wants to play chase'.

The owners were reasonable people who would collect the dogs and call them back. The dogs were friendly family pets, not child killers (hyperbole much?) But none of it would have happened at all if ds2 had stood still. It only happened because of his reaction. He was chased and leapt over because his body language invited the dogs to play. It was blindingly obvious to anyone with a sensible brain in their head.

So we worked on overcoming his fear of dogs so he could stand still.

And now he loves dogs, and sneaks our dog (which we didn't have back then btw) into his bed because he is not remotely fearful now. He's also very good at reading dog language - which makes things easier.

Going to post one thing before heading up to bed.

I went to the beach (a dog friendly one in case anyone is interested). My dog ran in and out of the sea a bit and then settled down a few feet away from my daughter to supervise her while she built sandcastles, keeping a close eye when she went off to fill her bucket with water for the moat. We were all minding our own business when a child approached (I reckon about 8 or 9 years old) and said "Excuse me, can I please stroke your dog?" I picked myself up off the floor and looked round for the mumsnetter I thought must be lurking nearby, and then said "Why, yes, of course." Child did, supervised by me (I grabbed the collar just to be sure that she couldn't suddenly lunge and remove the child's arm since of course every dog is a killing machine ), dog loved every second of it, child escaped with not so much as a lick but wearing a big grin and telling me my dog was gorgeous (which she is), and I thought: well now, it is possible for a dog to have a positive interaction with a strange child and for everyone to live to tell the tale, with all limbs intact.

And see how easy it was? The child asked and I was then able to offer advice on which bits not to pat, and to hold on to the dog while the child enjoyed the interaction. And really, as a dog owner, that's about all I ask. I'm not valuing my dog over the child when I ask you to control your kids round my dog, I'm saying that although I honestly can't see my dog going for anyone (if I thought she would, I wouldn't take her out to public places), I'd rather not run the risk and would like the chance to make sure that a child's interaction with her is safe, and fun for both of them. If your child runs amok and hurts my dog, then I'd go mental - it's just not necessary and is so avoidable. I have kids and dogs. I don't value the dogs over the kids - I've just taught them both to behave round each other and everyone's happy. Why does it have to come down to a choice?

I see it as a win win. Teach your kids to behave around dogs and your child stands a chance of having a good interaction rather than a frightening one, and the dog doesn't get scared, and the adults don't get stressed.

And as I have repeatedly pointed out. The dogs that came over and ds2 squealed about were neither here nor there really. He was never in any danger. The problem was all his friends (bar one) had dogs. And he stopped being invited to their houses because his reaction was so extreme to them. He had to learn, not to become best friends with dogs, but to continue to interact and meet up with his human friends.

I think lazyjane most of us are suggesting that parents train their children because it benefits the child

You should read some of the stuff upthread!!!

Lazy no one has said dogs are more important than kids, we have said that ad owners our responsibility is to keep our dogs under control not your kids

It was hard to work out what you in particularly were saying as it seemed to mostly consist of incoherent diatribe and insults.

But the point at issue is that of the responsibility for your dogs in public places where children are.

Dog owners are the ones bringing potentially dangerous animals near children in public places, not parents. It is not my responsibility to train my "probably obnoxious" toddler so that your dog doesn't bite it, it is your responsibility to ensure your dog doesn't bite and injure my kid in a public place, no matter what my kid does. Kids are kids, they aren't all growed up, many are too small to train in dog handling, and they make mistakes etc. But their rights not to be hurt trump any dog's in a public space. And the law agrees with this.

These are the blindingly obvious points that the dog-nuts on this thread still seem unable to grasp, 15 or so pages in.

Oh dear, ive had to say it again...

Flojo

I don't disagree with you. I would rather children didn't approach and pet my dog. As it is they do, often because their parents have suggested they do so. At least if they ask me I have the chance to say yes or no.

If my dog is on the lead I have fulfilled my responsibility end of discussion

If you can't control your child and stop them running up to complete strangers perhaps you should put your child on a lead

All right to I admit I am biased against dogs as I was bitten (very very mildly) as a child.

I was about 10-11yo and bent down to pick up a fork my younger sister dropped on the floor at dinner at my Grandad's and his dog (I think it was some sort of jack russell terrier - but it was all black so maybe not) ran out from under the table and bit me right on the end of my nose and ran back under again. (laugh away dog lovers...you know you want to). I was convinced it was all my fault so I made an excuse and hid in the bathroom until the bleeding stopped.

Of course it wasn't my fault because if a grandfather sits you down for dinner with his dog in the room he can pretty much be expected the situation in which one of the 3 kids in the room is going to drop something and pick it up....and of course it wasn't the dogs fault because my grandfather kept it partially as a guard dog and it was utterly utterly crazy...

But there is fault...and it begins with keeping a dangerous animal around children.

"But to have to teach her how to respond to being approached by dogs off the lead, or how to respond to being snarled or bitten by a dog she wasn't bothering really makes me feel sick."

I'd agree, ICBINEG, for what it's worth, and I am a crazy dog lover.

But there's a practical side of me that says that if she's going to come into contact with dogs off lead, for example, then better she knows how to manage that - she shouldn't have to but if the situation is there best she knows how to deal with it. It's like any of those sorts of situations. You'd rather your kids didn't have to know what to do in case of a fire at home or school but just in case, best to cover it. Or that they wouldn't have to know about what damage fast cars can do - but they might need that knowledge one day so you may as well teach them.

I think cars provide the best analogy actually. They are dangerous things which can kill and should be under control, but sometimes the owner and their attitude means they are not. Sometimes this can simply mean annoying others (driving too fast, not indicating when turning). Sometimes they have the potential to be really dangerous (like someone using their phone while driving) and sometimes worse - they can be out of control and mount pavements and then nothing you do will help you. So you teach basic road safety, even if you don't have a car, because others do, and you need your child to understand how to keep themselves as safe as possible. And it doesn't need you to stop your child ever having anything to do with cars, just an understanding of road safety. It's much the same with dogs. The majority are sensible with decent owners. In an ideal world, they'd all be. Just like all car owners would be. But it's not an ideal world so best have a bit of knowledge to help you along.

"Surely if anyone makes the decision to share their life with a breed of animal known to have killed children, that it quite seriously their problem and not mine?"

I'm not disagreeing that owning a dog is a responsibility to other people as well as to the dog.

But it's about everyone making their own lives easier and safer. The OP posted about warning children not to run up and grab strange dogs and even stated that her dog was on a lead when this happens.

I can't see the problem with teaching your children not to do that. I was always taught that, I teach my son that.

It's not saying the owner has no responsibility. But the OP having her dog on a lead means she is upholding her responsibility but having other people help explain to their children not to run up to it will help her.

I can't see that it's all that different to teaching a child road safety. They don't drive, your family might not have a car, might not even like cars, but cars are on the road and although it's up to the driver to drive safely, it's just sensible to teach children not to run out without looking.

icbineg that is awful and no dog kept and trained as a guard dog should be allowed to be near kids. But the vast majority of dogs are not trained to be such. They are family pets in the same vein as cats and hamsters etc.

Dogs that are allowed to run riot and have owners incapable of controlling them are a pita and in those instances you are right the onus is on the owner.

However, a dog on a lead is perfectly under control and highly unlikely to attack in the way you mean. if jumped upon by a boisterous child or adult when not expecting it as owner has not been asked and given time to advise may snap. This is not to say they are trying to hurt but just to warn the threat off. This is why as owners we would prefer those sorts of people either asked or stayed away as we are trying to stay away from them.

If my dog is on the lead I have fulfilled my responsibility end of discussion. If you can't control your child and stop them running up to complete strangers perhaps you should put your child on a lead

This has been the sort of insane attitude among the dog-nuts on the thread. The solution proffered is that kids should be on leashes, in public places, to keep these dogs from maiming them.

Outside of this thread these sort of people would be thought absolutely barking mad, but on here this has been pretty standard fare for 15 pages!

Do you really, really think that if some toddler veered into your dog and tripped over it (as toddlers do), and it bit her and caused injury requiring stitches, the law is going to prosecute the toddler and not you?

I don't think someone has to learn how to respond to being bitten by a dog. That's not what I said at all. I was talking about playful dogs who would have ignored ds2 completely had he not unintentionally invited them to play because of the way he reacted.

But toddlers and small children behave inappropriately all the time MrsWolowitz.

Even those who are pretty good 90% of the time have to be watched constantly. They are unpredictable by nature. They do stupid and irresponsible things. They can't be trusted not to kill themselves and are not allowed to be alone.

Why do dog owners expect them to behave properly with dogs around when they can be seen in supermarkets and doctor's waiting rooms and churches and all sorts of other places behaving according to their nature -- being loud and obstreporous and obstinate and occasionally exuberant and friendly, and very clearly not just mini adults?

That is just barmy.

Babybythesea, you are talking about a child of about 8 right?

Babybythesea you held on to your dogs collar, just in case. Most owners don't. They would respond in a sure it's fine, when actually you can see their dog with its tail between its legs looking not very happy. If you don't know the owner then don't ask. It's rude to ask too mrsw. I quite like babies but I don't go up to random people asking to hold their baby yet its acceptable to ask to stroke their dog.

^'the safety of other peoples' kids trumps that of your dog.'*

And 99% of people on this thread agree wholeheartedly with that, but why can't you see that it is in your child's interests to learn how to interact safely with a dog?

It's the same as teaching them road safety, water safety, fire safety, all the other safeties that best ensures your child journeys through their day unharmed.

I think your hatred of dogs is making you quite irrational.

no matter what my kid does
Lazy you forgot to quote what you'd said

I agree with you OP

I was thought to not touch or feed a dog without the owners permission and I teach the same to my kids.

but I grew up in a different country where all dogs must wear a muzzle in public and are kept on a leash.

they can be off leash, but muzzles are obligatory. there are dedicated areas where they can be without either.

I love dogs & had dogs, but I absolutely hate seeing them without a muzzle. especially certain types that are not classified as family/child friendly or have a bad reputation.

they scare the shit out of me - ever since I was bitten by one.

I was taught!

not thought