Refused help with pram by tube station staff... Surely that is not right?!

[PenelopeChipShop]

I was travelling home today on the tube, a route I don't normally take due to the hassle but my car is in the garage. I had one-year-old ds with me in his pram. I needed to get up a flight of steps to the platform and I can't lift him and the pram, they're just too heavy together. I usually avoid having to be in this situation as its a hassle and its nobody else's responsibility to help me I suppose, but today I had no choice.

So I knocked on the door of the station office which I could see had a few men in high vis jackets (so presumably tube workers) milling around. The door was answered by a woman who flatly refused to help me up the steps. A first she just said 'I can't help you'. I thought fair enough, maybe she has a bad back or something, but when I asked in a friendly way if there was a strong man who might help me, looking towards all the guys at the back, she disappeared for a second then just came back, said no, looked very disapproving and shut the door on me! I thought this was really rude but was too shocked to do anything.

I know she probably has more important things to do but what world are we living in where tube staff can't take 2 mins out of their day to help a mum up some stairs?? The reason I was out was to do volunteer work in the local community,who says karma exists eh. :-(

[TraceyTrickster]

I had the same - sleeping baby in a stroller.
Their answer- take child out, and fold the stroller then I should be able to manage. They then all walked off.

Whatever happened to human kindness?
I bumped my daughter up the steps very slowly, causing a huge backlog which infuriated people, but what else could I do. Heaven help if there had been an incident needing the station to be evacuated.

I hated using the tube. I was even pushed as I was trying to get off and my daughter in her stroller was sent flying onto the platform. I was in tears.

[PenelopeChipShop]

Notsochic thank you for understanding! It just feels crap to have to ask for help and actually be refused!

Vinegar it's an Oyster, which I can assure you was bought for the most practical of reasons, it was the lightest and narrowest I had tried. I certainly didn't buy what I thought was fashionable or whatever - in fact at that point I didn't even realise some prams were fashionable. Difficult to believe after a year of bring immersed in baby kit but back then I really didn't know what I needed and couldn't see past the newborn state. Obviously you aren't going to go for a MacLaren at that point as you keep being told the baby has to lie flat.

[ArabellaBeaumaris]

They can lie flat in the Maclaren too btw.

[quesadilla]

I have asked tube staff to help me with buggies and been told they can't help and the stock response is always to do with then not being insured.

Its a typical health and safety cop-out and it makes me really cross, to be honest. I'm not insured to help elderly people cross a road either but I do it because that's what we should do: help people who are more vulnerable in society.

[TheDoctrineOfAllan]

The difference between you helping an older person to cross the road as a "citizen" and the tube staff helping you as "staff" is that no claim could be made against you as the former.

There's also the fact that if everyone who would like help got it, they'd have to have many more staff.

[Justforlaughs]

As a passenger I would always help someone with their pushchair/ luggage etc in fact I've been known to stop/ even go and get my car to give a stranger a lift with heavy shopping, or in the rain! but I'd never EXPECT anyone, whether they were working or not, to help me carry anything that I have chosen to take with me. Nice if they offer, but why would you put yourself in that position? Having said that I'm a ten ton Tess who used to carry a double buggy up the stairs, complete with 2 toddlers in it!

[Cyclebump]

She was incredibly rude so complain.

In the past tube staff have told me they can carry the buggy but not if the child is in it in case the child is injured if the buggy breaks/gets dropped etc.

[Justforlaughs]

I should have added, that whether they were prepared/ allowed to help or not, there is never an excuse to be rude.

[eccentrica]

another vote for maclaren. I have the globetrotter, I'm pregnant and can carry it with my nearly 3yo in situ.

also another vote for don't go on the tube with a pram (or anything) you can't carry and make that someone else's fault!

[spotofcheerfulness]

I love how everyone is spectacularly missing the point and chatting about relative merits of pushchairs! The OP never intended this situation to happen as she usually takes a different route. It's not as though she made a conscious effort to inconvenience people.
My two kenneth - I wouldn't have approached a member of staff because I know they'd be unlikely to help, but lingered at the bottom of stairs hoping another passenger would help. IME other people are always willing to help, staff rarely so because of health n safety rules.

[PlatinumStart]

I commuted with two under two in central London (nursery was near my office). In the main people were very helpful, but it only takes one or two arses to ruin the picture.

The insurance excuse is my pet hate - say it like it is "I'm a lazy selfish sod who can't be arsed". I'm not insured to help people as i go about my day to day living but I've lost count of the number of buggies I've helped carry, bags I've lifted onto trains or cases put into overhead lockers. It's called being a decent person.

[eccentrica]

spot did you consider that perhaps if 'everyone' except you has (spectacularly missed the point', perhaps theyve understood something you've missed?

most of us posting here are Londoners (I was born and raised here as one of three close I'm age kids) and are suggesting that a pram which you can't lift yourself is a very poor choice for anyone who lives here.

[eccentrica]

*three close in age kids!

[Lj8893]

platinum the insurance reason is not an excuse and certainly doesn't make someone a lazy selfish ass!!!

If I helped someone up or down the stairs in my job and damaged my back, or fell down the stairs etc etc i could not claim any sort of insurance from the company I work for, and if I couldn't work for a time afterwards then tough!

If I damaged thier property, or child, or whatever it was I was helping them carry, they could certainly sue myself or/and the company I work for. If I did that in a place where I am just another customer/passenger/passerby, then they can't sue me.

This doesn't mean I don't help everyone that asks for it in my workplace, I use my initiative but the insurance/health&safety reason is a valid reason and does not make me lazy and selfish Thankyou very much.

[MrsFruitcake]

I've only ever had to use the tube with a stroller once and it was awful. I did what others suggest and loitered making feeble attempts to get it up the steps on my own, until a rather nice chap in a suit came to my aid. We caused a huge backlog of people behind us (it was rush hour) but hey ho, life goes on.

The next time, I used a sling (DS was about 14 months by then) and had him tied to my hip, and used my umbrella stroller which was so much easier IMO.

There is never an excuse for rudeness though, and on that point, I would complain I think.

[PlatinumStart]

LJ8893 the vast majority of people don't have insurance of going about their day to day existence but that doesn't stop them being kind decent people.

If I, or the countless strangers I have witnessed helping people with luggage/shopping/clearing snow/changing tyres/carrying buggies hurt themselves then they wouldn't be able to claim insurance and would have to suff the consequences of their injuries, likewise if they damaged property or injured someone they could put themselves at risk of being sued. Fortunately most people are not risk obsessed and selfish and do what they can to help as the need arises.

[MojitoMagnet]

I''m a non-Londoner who has been on the tube with a DC in a pushchair a about a dozen times a year when visiting London (sometimes with a suitcase in tow too)

I think YABU

• you can do most journeys in London with a couple of bus rides and a modest amount of walking, so it's easy enough to avoid the tube if you can't manage. if you can't even begin to attempt the stairs on your own, use the bus. www.journeyplanner.tfl.gov.uk/ is your friend - just untick the "tube" tickbox and it will tell you the easiest way to get from any A to any B - even changing busses isn't that much hassle - OK you occassionally have to wait for the next one if there isn't a buggy space but that's not the end of the world, and they are much easier with a buggy than stairs.
  
  
• there is an obvious and huge difference between a member of TFL staff, during their working time, stopping what they are doing to help with heavy lifting. The legal implications are huge. It is quite right they should be advised not to (but they should have been polite about it)
  
  
• If you start gingerly edging your pushchair up/down steps slowly, soon enough a kind passer-by will help. As they aren't doing it in the capacity of their employment there's less opportunity for suing! I only recall one occasion when I got an entire length of a staircase on my own without a kind stranger helping, out of dozens of times when I was helped.

[massagegirl]

Very well put platinum

[Lj8893]

Yes but a random stranger who has no connection to the establishment you are in, is less likely to be sued for any damage. An employee of that establishment causing damage is completely liable to be sued.

I am not saying everyone is going to sue but unfortunately there are many that will.

So yes as a random person I will always help people if I am able to, but as an employee I am always much more careful.

But again, the tube staff were still very rude and could have quite easily apologised and given an explanation why.

[MojitoMagnet]

Lj you are wrong - if you have an injury while on your employers premises, and you are complying with your employers Health and Safety policies at the time, then you are able to sue your employer for compensation for the injury, lost earnings etc.

The same injury while not at work, you can only sue someone if you can show negligence on the part of a third party.

That's why most employers have a H&S policy which boils down, basically, to "do not take any risk doing something which common-sense shows could lead to injury, without doing a full risk assessment and getting it signed off by someone appropriatly senior". It's a complete no-brainer that TFL employees H&S policy should tell them not to do heavy lifting like this.

[MojitoMagnet]

oops lj apologies I misread who typed the wrong thing

[Trapper]

LJ8893, they can sue you as a customer/passenger/passerby - you still have a legal duty of care.
I suspect the greater risk to the organisation in question is not being sued by the person being helped, rather the employee for any kind of injury and/or resultant time of work. By training staff not to help in these circumstances, they are reducing the risk of the employee having a case against the company in the event of an incident.

[MojitoMagnet]

Sorry to post 3 times in a row but I'm confused - apologies, it's all too early in the morning.

It's the post of 08:45:32 that I thought wasn't correct If I helped someone up or down the stairs in my job and damaged my back, or fell down the stairs etc etc i could not claim any sort of insurance from the company I work for, and if I couldn't work for a time afterwards then tough! - I'm sure that's not true...

After I posted mine of 09:00:04 I saw yours of 08:59:43 which seemed to be arguing the opposite so I thought I must have been incorrect about who posted what.

Apologies for the confusion. As you were. Off for a shower and some caffeine now.

[Lj8893]

Mojito, that is what I was saying, you just worded it much better!

But yes if a company's Heath and safety and risk assessments state not to lift anything, help people up and down stairs etc etc and then an employee did, then they would have a hard time suing the company as an employee.