to think that 20 grand on benefits a year is loads

[MrsBucketxx]

considering they dont pay any income tax.

just watching we pay your benefits program and worked out that this is over 30 grand if it was a normal tax paying salary.

why was this not mentioned.

Twisty feet - the working family will also have a mortgage or rent and cconcil tax to pay so they won't see a chunk of their money either. And out of the working families top up tax credits they will have to pay for school meals, dental costs, prescription costs and travel to work costs. So the working family has a lot more expenses to meet so might not be much better off.
I really can't understand the argument that the benefit claimants don't get 20k because they have to pay their rent out of that - working people don't live in their houses for free either!

Working families on 20K, if renting, will get some housing benefit. We did. And CTC ON TOP of that 20k. While those on benefits CTC is included in that sum

I know because we've done both. Been on 20K and been on benefits and we were far far better off on 20K a year. And just how much do people spend at the dentist and on scripts each year to keep citing it? Kids are free and me and DH dont go, on benefits or in work.

twistyfeet- I did say that about salaried families also not seeing a penny of their rent money, unless you could watching it whizz through your bank account as "seeing" it.

The other big difference is the cost of childcare- if one parent is at home fulltime, you save a packet on childcare.

And you also have time to do slower cooking of cheaper cuts of meat, making stock, etc etc

The other issue is pre-existing debt. I wish there were a central community bank that would buy up existing debt and then just charge a sensible, low %age

That is a really, really good idea. If you're on benefits, there simply isn't enough to pay debts - any debts, so people invariably end up being blacklisted. This is not helpful for when they are back in work and thinking in terms of a mortgage and so on.

twistyfeet a few years ago hubby and I earned 25k between us and got about 2k in tax credits. We didn't get any housing or concil tax benefits.
Out of that 25k we also had to pay tax, NI, and pension contributions, so we didn't bring home 25k. In one of those years both hubby and I needed dental treatment - both being band C treatments and costing 200 quid ish each. And seeing as one of us needs regular prescriptions we have to pay £104 per year for a prepayment certificate or £7 odd for each item which adds up quickly. School meals at £12 per week for each child......
Travel to work costs are also horrendously expensive, plus the costs of replacing work type clothing on a regular basis. Plus childcare as even those entitled to tax credits have to pay 30% of their childcare costs.
I'm not against people claiming benefits as we need a system that provides for those in need, I'm just annoyed by those that can't see that working doesn't always lead to a much bigger disposable income.

So long as people who earn less are paying tax to keep non working people on a higher standard of living than they have, the Benefits system will be seen as unfair and will come under pressure.

Is £20k after tax at the crossover where it's better to work? I suspect it's way over the crossover still (maybe excepting London) as that amount pre tax is about the average wage, and people working have all sorts of costs that those not working dont have. So, I'd expect ongoing pressure on benefit levels from taxpayers for quite a while longer.

Someone earlier upthread said we are entitled to a decent standard of living, whether we work or not. It's that entitlement mindset which needs to be eliminated, it's unaffordable and immoral.

Sounds alot but that will include child benefit which most working people get on top. Working people als get tax credits. Plus as others have said much of the problem is high rents.

I can't really answer all the foot stompy points that were thrown at me but stormy the POINT is to try and get the government to helping people in the right way, to assist people to re-train and to work, not for someone else to pay your degree for you, but to offer incentives to study,particularly in those sectors which we are crying out for workers.

If that makes no sense to you i despair, its written quite clearly.

The main problem seems to be people who don't know much, or indeed anything about how the benefit system works and the cost of living these days.
I think you should at least learn about something if you are going to bash or be judgemental.

I don't think anyone is entitled to a decent standard of living, including myself, unless they are disabled or old or young or something that truly prevents work.

I may be being thick here but why do people always say that figure includes rent and council tax benefit ? Well of course it does, our salaries have to pay mortgage and council tax so the resulting figure is going to be the income!

Working should always pay more than unemployment benefits.

YANBU

OP you know what i wondered while i was watching this programme.
Whether Debbie who runs the cleaning companys employees have to claim tax credits.
I bet they almost certainly do which would make her a raging great hypocrite. Funny how this was never covered or mentioned in the show.

The main problem seems to be people who don't know much, or indeed anything about how the benefit system works and the cost of living these days

An "interesting" assumption, that people who work and pay tax and their own accommodation, living and child care costs somehow don't understand the cost of living.

I have no idea what the crossover was but earning 20K (and paying tax) meant be were much better off. Because of the CTC. We got way more back.
I suspect it tails of pretty sharpish as you go up but there's always going to be that middle ground.
I agree that Debbie gets away with paying her employees £7 an hour because they get topped up with CTC etc as with most low paid work. The Carer lady would also be getting CTC as Caring is very low paid but then would local councils be able to fund Carers for disabled people? One way or another its paid for out of taxes, either indirectly via CTC or directly via higher pay for Carers paid for by the councils. (and you can bet the Agency charges the council £15 per hour while the actual worker gets £7)

The programme shoul have used a single person with bills to pay. Jsa for a single person is approx £70per week. On top of that she doesn't pay rent. Perhaps 80 pw on her 1 bedroom flat. She now has to pay council tax whilst famalies with young children under 5 don't despite them receiving much larger benefits. (In her area)
This is where the real injustice lies. She worked for 25 years until an outside company csme in and closed the factory down. They just wanted the name.
Her redundancy payout has long since run out and she received no benefits whilst she had that.
As someone who volunterrs in a charity shop for 2 days pw it really hurt when one of those bitches on the programme claimed voluntary work is only valuable if you are in paid work aswell.

So we're not entitled to a decent standard of living? A roof over our heads, food to eat, healthcare when we're sick or injured? I believe every person in the world is entitled to that, and we are fortunate enough to live in a country that provides it if we cannot do so for ourselves. By your logic I would be living on the street, and my son with his father. Not a good situation for either of us.

O and she has worked intermittently too. Just not much work around for someone with no qualifications/ poss mild learning diffuctiles and no transport.

I agree Martini If voluntary work is going to be seen as nothing or not valued thats hardly going to encourage more people to do it.

this So we're not entitled to a decent standard of living? is different than this A roof over our heads, food to eat, healthcare when we're sick or injured?

I would really like to know the answer to the question put by Darkesteyes about Debbie's employees and whether they get tax credits or not.

I actually think it's important to know that. Because if the tax payer is subsidising Debbie's business then, as Darkesteyes says, she is a hypocrite.

I can't afford to pay my dogwalking staff more than £8 an hour (part-time). Because our clients won't book our service if it costs any more than it already does. We're already doing some clients at a break-even rate as we know them well enough to know they simply can't afford to pay more and if we don't do it the dogs will suffer. Didn't see the programme some people are talking about, but accusing 'Debbie' of hypocrisy if she's in the same place as me, running a small business in a personal service industry, isn't fair.

I'm currently 26 weeks pg, I have a 9yo and a 10mo.

I have arthritis in both knees and I currently have spd, I am STILL made to apply for at least 5 jobs per day, spend 5hrs job hunting, take my cv to at least 3 different places and apply to 2 agencies PER WEEK. The job centre are well aware im pg, well aware I have spd (2 different letters from consultants are on my file as well as a matb1 form). However, if I miss just one step in the list or cannot make an appt that they set up for me, even if I have an antenatal appt at the hospital, they will stop my money. No questions asked.
I had dd2 via c section, they allowed me to sign on via post for 6 weeks after my due date, I called and explained dd was 12 days late and due to having a c section, I wouldn't be able to make my sign on date. I was sanctioned for a month because of it.

I have no choice but to go sign on. When dh and I applied for jsa, we put me as the main claimant for it, when I got pg, we tried to switch it over but they screwed up and left us with no money until we switched it back.

I want to go to university, however, is need to do an access to higher learning course as I have no a levels. I need to find over £2000 just to cover the cost of the course and the books/bus fare/ etc. We might get jsa for dh but that would be

FasterStronger, it's what my benefits allowed me to have. Think of the necessities, food, rent, utilities. Then the stuff we shouldn't need but do - internet and phone. Without them it's insanely hard to get by. Factor in clothes and shoes, again essential, and that would leave me with nothing in my account until the next payday. Heaven forbid an appliance broke down!

Which is the same stuff I had to pay for when I was working, with the same problems. Only difference is I wasn't vilified by society for it back then.