To think it won't help me or ds to know he's in the bottom 10% of children

[Minifingers]

when he leaves primary? Or my oldest ds to know he's probably in the top 10%?

This is what the government is suggesting - that children are ranked into 10 ability bands when they leave primary.

I know how able or otherwise my children are - I read their school reports, I look at their SATS results, I talk to their teachers.

What will ranking them in this way do other than give them an overwhelming sense of failure or complacency?

Oh, and children's self-esteem is not just based on where they are in the class, it's built from home too. I don't think parents help sometimes. Everyone wants their child to be the best, to be in the top set, to complain to the school if they're not.

My dd is in the bottom set for Maths and has just finished Year 7. She has not spent the year sobbing that she's useless, she's knows it's an area of weakness. In the end it turned out to be the best thing - she was in a group of 10 and has made loads of progress over the year.

I'm amazed how many of the objections raised on this thread are based on the false premise that teachers can't properly assess pupils ability for the purpose of setting without a national ranking system as proposed by the government

Um. One of the reasons the NC was brought in was because of the variations in teaching and the lack of assessment.
And assessments are still, usually, quite subjective, so without knowing more, I'm not entirely sure the proposal is a bad thing.

niceguy2 excellent post and I agree with every word.

If a child is that upset about being in a bottom group at school, they're really going to have problems later on.

Katie Hopkins has just been on the Jeremy Vine show. She believes the bottom 10% have feckless parents, always late for school, never in correct uniform and need to be shamed into doing better. Conversely she believes top 10% should be applauded and shout about their superiority, and these kids obviously are the only ones with motivated and involved parents.

Sadly i think many people may agree with her on this one.

I have a DD1 who would be in the top of the top 10%, and a DD2 who would be mid level bottom 10%. She is talking crap again.

eretrew Wed 17-Jul-13 09:49:30

I've heard of private and grammar schools doing this in the past, its never done them any harm. Its a competitive world out there and if you're in the bottom 10% then frankly you're in trouble.

Thank you so much for that, eretrew. I have a child who is so low down in that bottom 10% that he has his own curriculum, separate from his own peers. I don't need it rubbing in with crass comments from snooty arseholes. Nor do I need a test to tell me what I already know.

drivinmecrazy - I have one at each end (both with SN). I wonder what sort of parent that makes me in Katie Hopkins' eyes.

Niceguy a parent would already know if his or child was working below expectations or above them - there's no issue there, and nothing to address: that's the point of the NC levels.

What they don't know is the exact 'rank' of the child compared to all other children that age - and frankly I don't see how that would help. If your child is getting level 4s in year 6 you know he or she is pretty much in the middle; if level 6s, you know he or she is brighter than average. But if you have two children working at level 6, how does it help to know MOlly is number 7 and Sophie is number 13? It doesn't, not at all.

It won't 'help' anyone to know a rank: it helps to know if you're falling behind, or your marks are slipping, or you're doing very well, yes, but then, we already do know all that!

30 children in every single year group in every school already cope with being 'bottom set' - that isn't the issue, and it already happens. niceguy and dancergirl the points you're making seem more about a general sense of how we deal with attainment and disappointment in children, which are valid and interesting, but actually ongoing already.

One problem is when a child with lack of confidence under achieves and loses confidence so performs worse...

But dm taught, and she had far more problems with children (and parents) who thought they had an exceptional child, when the child was good or good/average. These children often did not achieve what they should have achieved because they were so brilliant (in their/their parent's eyes) they didn't need to work to get anywhere.
Generally the lower ability ones that she was teaching had far better work ethic, and achieved far greater for their targets than those who should have achieved better but never realised that they needed to work.

reallytired the problem with making sublevels official is that they don't mean anything. Levels were designed to measure progress over a key stage. But now it's got so ridiculous that parents think an individual piece of work coming back with 'level 4b' on it actually means something, or says something about their child. It doesn't. It's subjective nonsense.

"I'm actually quite shocked and saddened by the attitudes on this post. And if that's a reflection of parenting nowadays then I fear for the next generation.

Not finding out in case you 'brand' them and they feel sad because they've failed is completely missing the point. The idea is that you find out early enough so you can HELP THEM."

Oh for fuck's sake - don't be a tosser. Parents and children know when a child is struggling in a subject because the teacher tells them and they can see it for themselves!

It's not about ignoring reality regarding your child's abilities. This test isn't about identifying specific strengths and weaknesses in a child's learning, and helping them address these weaknesses: it's about RANKING them in relation to their peers.

And maybe you could consider the fact that some of us who's children may be ranked very low in this test ALREADY DO HELP THEM, and that children who are ranked very low MAY ALREADY BE DOING THEIR BEST.

I taught a boy in Y7 whose parents were completely unaware that he was struggling. They knew he got a level 3 in his SATs, but his effort and achievement were outstanding so they thought that was fine.

I told them he wouldn't get a C at GCSE without extra work. They were astonished, hired a tutor and he is now making much better progress.

There are parents out there who don't know how their children are doing in relation to others. This information would make it explicit.

I am a teacher and our classes are set by level to allow the work to be at the most appropriate level for the pupils. We avoid making a big deal out of the class levels and constantly remind pupils that the work, overall, is the same for all pupils in the year group and that they all have the opportunity to produce the same work if they work to the best of their ability.
One of my classes last year was the bottom set and they HATED knowing they were the bottom - they we embarrassed and demotivated. When we decided that we would, as a class, aim for the same exams as the rest of the year (previously they were not supposed to be sitting the exam due to their ability) they worked incredibly hard as they saw that they didn't always have to be the bottom. Conversely, the year before I have a top set who were very lazy, in general, as they had spent years being told they were super intelligent and felt they didn't have to bother working.
Really, what I am saying is that all pupils need t be encouraged to do the best that THEY can, regardless of the rest of the class/school/country. They are going to spend their adult lives battling against everyone else for jobs etc, why make them feel useless/ like they don't need to bother from such a young age. We are in danger of making the vast majority of kids hate school from the age of 11 rather than enjoying learning which has to be part of it for the, to achieve anything

I'm in the minority and I'd actually quite like to know where my children are in relation to the rest of the children their age. I know where they are in terms of their classes, but how do I know that they aren't in a particularly strong or weak year group or class. How do I know that the school is teaching well enough in relation to other schools, especially when OFSTED are close to useless? How do I know that there isn't more I could be doing to help my child achieve his potential when he's in a class with people almost a year older than him?

I'd want to know if my child was below average so that I could give more input at home, even if in terms of their class they appeared to be doing ok.

Well said Leonas

But you do know, cloudsandtrees- that's what the NC levels tell you.

Parents and children know when a child is struggling in a subject because the teacher tells them and they can see it for themselves!

I don't agree with this. My sons Y6 teacher told me he was on track to get level 5 in his Grammar, punctuation and spelling SAT, which he did. Considering he's the youngest in his class and still 10, that would seem to be pretty good. Except when he's doing a piece of writing, everything he knows goes down the toilet and it isn't much different to what an able child in y3/4 could do.

I only know that he needs extra help from working in a school and seeing the standard that other children his age are at. If it were left to SATs and teachers, which it often is, I would be clueless about my child's need for help.

"My sons Y6 teacher told me he was on track to get level 5 in his Grammar, punctuation and spelling SAT, which he did. Considering he's the youngest in his class and still 10, that would seem to be pretty good."

Love all the stealth boasting on this thread.

"Except when he's doing a piece of writing, everything he knows goes down the toilet and it isn't much different to what an able child in y3/4 could do."

Which you know despite the fact he's never sat a test ranking him against other children.

"If it were left to SATs and teachers, which it often is, I would be clueless about my child's need for help"

You can read. The national curriculum levels for every year are there for everyone to look at. It's the responsibility of teachers to give parents a clear idea of where their child needs help and how to help them. Knowing that your child is in the bottom 20% nationally isn't going to help parents identify exactly how their child is struggling - they need a teacher to do that. A teacher who has seen their child working over a period of a year and should have a very comprehensive understanding of that child's strengths and weaknesses. Which of course a test can't do - because it only tests that child's knowledge and skills on that particular day.

As someone who has a dd with what I think is a good report I would live to know how it compares nationally or even in her school as without context it's meaningless. Dd may be on level whatever and I may think that sounds good but it's less good if everyone else is a level higher.