To think that you can't actually measure effort?

[IfIonlyhadsomesleep]

I'm coming at this from both sides. Yes, I am feeling a bit sore that dd has had a poor effort grade in a couple of subjects. But it's not just that. I used to get brilliant effort grades in subjects I found easy. It looked as if I was working hard-actually I was coasting. And for the things I found hard and really tried in? Rubbish effort grades.
You can grade application, attentiveness in class, all sorts. But you've no idea of knowing how hard stuff is for someone, nor how hard they're working. Ironically, dd had a brilliant effort grade for the thing I know is effortless for her. What is hard for her is sitting still, listening, breaking up a task and not panicking at the sight of it and not procrastinating over it. I know-I've worked really hard with her on this at home and, although she's still not heads down no fuss, she gets on with the homework and gets it done.

I'm not about to storm the school gates. But the other thing is that it is assumed she could just go "oh-poor effort grade, best pull my socks up" which I don't think is true. Any more than someone struggling with maths can go "oops - best get better at maths then". There's people who are naturally good at achieving, there are those who are naturally good at applying themselves. At the opposite ends, support is needed.

Actually, I think YABU.

A good teacher who really knows a child should be able to accurately assess how much effort has gone in and should certainly be able to distinguish good marks from good effort.

So I would expect a primary school teacher (who has the same class each day) to be able to do it. I guess it may be more difficult at secondary.

I agree with barbarianmum.

You can tell if a child is trying there hardest and wanting to learn. If they are spending a lot of time off task then they are obviously not putting the effort in.

My only issue would be if that was down to the child or the work being set.

Also remember that there is a huge emphasis now on children actually discussing their progress, or articulating their learning, in a way I never did at school, so I think teachers are now better equipped to judge if someone is coasting or not.

Great. Dd's just lazy then. Not quite sure how to help her. Clearly, neither the work itself nor the teachers dissatisfaction is motivating her to change.

I think your premise is incorrect, it certainly is possible to measure effort to a rough degree, but the problem you describe is real - some teachers are lazy or not competent enough to accurately effort grade all the pupils they deal with. So effort grades can be unhelpful in these cases.

How old is she?

Why not go into the school and tell them you are concerned, ask them what They are doing to help her and how you can help her - and of course what she needs to do herself.

I feel that a mark for effort is a bit useless on its own. Its better to grade behaviour, proportion of work handed in and actual progress. A child who regularly hands in homework but makes no progress deserves a hug. A child who gets top marks but is disruptive deserves a kick up the back side. (metaphorically... before you scream child abuse.)

My son was critised for effort, but I know he has worked incredibly hard to get his level 5s.

I do agree with you to some extent so yanbu. Some teachers do equate the level of effort to the grades achieved. Unfortunately not all teachers really 'get' every child in their class. It's a similar situation with my kids in that it appears they get all A's for effort in the areas they find easiest but not so in the subjects they struggle with. I have recently had an interesting discussion with one of their teachers who put her hands up and admitted she didn't realise how hard dc was finding certain skills and has now changed her approach with him. Ask your dd what she thinks she finds hard and don't be afraid to share this info with her new teacher.

Effort is terribly vague. Far more useful to comment on coming prepared for the lesson, handing work on time, punctuality to lessons, al of which I've found correlate to attitudes to learning.

When I grade effort I think about if they hand work in on time, participate in activities, always listen, maybe try to answer questions even if just to me. Do they take advice and try to act upon it is a big thing that indicates effort to me. I certainly give high effort grades to pupils with lower marks sometimes and vice versa.

For me, it's the assumption that effort is a quick fix, student's responsibility thing. Sprinkle, not all of those things you describe are within a students control any more than their level of attainment. And it's easy for some children to do all of those and not for others. They are not all to do with effort put in. Dd finds it really difficult to get down to the task in hand. At home, we use timers, breaking down the task into smaller bits and talking about other times when she's managed it. She's seven by the way. Is not doing all of those things at school an indicator that she's not putting in the effort or that she has a real issue with organising her own learning? The achievement thing doesn't help-once she's got down to it she does the task quickly and to a high standard. Her teacher assumes this means that she could have done more if she'd started sooner. Possibly. But dd is keen to please and hates punishment. And she's pretty intelligent. So if she has a strategy to get on quickly and well, she must be a very strange being not to use it. Or maybe the task is too straightforward and dd's worked out she's got time to chat and get finished. I don't know. But I don't think it's as simple as saying pull up your socks.

I agree with you op. When I was at school, 1friend had internet at home. She was the only one in my group of friends that did, and always got 'a' for effort, when all she had to do was 'ask jeeves', then print what she found.
Another friend and I used to spend hours in the library looking in reference books and writing out what we found, yet always got lower effort marks.
(The mark for how good the work was was mostly the same for us all)

I know which of these methods used more effort!

Sorry the things sparking listed are to do with effort and unless some sort of special needs then children can do it (with support where needed)

Again, why not talk to the school rather than getting upset and looking for reasons why it's not an issue?

Of course a child will put in more effort in a subject they enjoy but that doesn't make it ok to not try in subjects they don't and children do need to learn that they have to try in everything.

This was at secondary level btw

I am secondary rather than primary. We definitely don't know the pupils as well. Most of the things I listed are within the control of most of the pupils, much of the time, by the time they reach secondary school I think.

I don't think you are being unreasonable as I think a lot of the time effort can be disguised.

DS1 has to try a lot harder in numeracy and stays in at break/asks to do extra work to get better. His effort grades are lower than in literacy which he finds easy, is very good at and really enjoys. It is unlikely for a child to receive 'A's for achievement but a low mark for effort I think (most of the time)

I'm with you. We used to get marked for PE and no matter how hard I tried, I'd get just as rubbish an effort grade as achievement. Obviously if someone starts walking after the first cross country circuit, it looks like they aren't trying, even if they've given everything they've got to that first circuit. The sports whizzes that did the whole course without issue got great effort marks. I don't believe it's possible to separate effort from achievement as easily as may people would have you believe.

I find the effort grades so subjective between different teachers, in fact the children know which teachers never hand out 1's for effort. As for ds science teacher she downgraded ds from a 1A* to a 3B because he didn't hand a piece of homework in when in fact she forgot to give him the worksheets! She wouldn't change the grade though.

My son always thought the ultimate school report was effort G, attainment A*......

Whereas I once got given an A for effort for a subject I hardly turned up to.

Definitely not looking for reasons it's not a problem-just a realistic prospect of finding ways to s

Sorry- just want to find ways of s