about inappropriate phone use, or is dd?

[Bedward]

dd is 13 and a couple of weeks ago, a friend's mum told me she'd seen a BBM chat on her dd's phone between the two girls and a boy my dd barely knows, which was v sexual in nature and lots of swearing - basically all from my dd (have seen messages, and the other two said nothing that bad, but dd was horrendous). I was cross/worried as:

a) we and the school have explained about not sending inappropriate messages/posting stuff online, because once it's out there, you can't get it back and it can haunt you/be posted elsewhere without your agreement etc

b) the sexual nature of the stuff gives a very misleading impression of her (she's entirely innocent in practice, although her knowledge is probably greater than I'd imagined ) and potentially places her at risk as the boy (and his friends if he shows them the conversation), all of whom barely know dd, will imagine she is up for far more than she might wish to be

c) the messages and chats I've had since with dd seem to suggest she has only a very sketchy idea of 'normal' boy-girl interaction (she's at an all-girls school) - she said the messages were a 'joke', which they were, but I would NEVER make explicit sexual jokes/comments to a male I didn't fancy, just as 'banter' - let alone at 13. I have recently suspected she might have (mild) Aspergers - am concerned she just doesn't 'get' that her comments were inappropriate.

So -I banned dd from use of her phone for a month or until I felt I could trust her and also from computer except for homework (had been facebooking other boy and hogging computer to watch endless videos, so was killing two birds with one stone, ).

dd thinks - not surprisingly - that I am B totally U - desperate to have her phone back. Whilst I think she's understood point a and maybe b, I really don't feel comfortable she's 'got' c at all... So am sticking to my guns until the month is up.

But I now have a new quandary - whilst out yesterday I forgot to 'hide' her phone properly, so she found it and it is obvious from activity on her messages that she has messaged the boy again, whilst banned from using the phone, and then wiped the messages, I think almost certainly to arrange a meet up after the last day of school next week. I had said she could go out with her (female) friends after school on the last day, but after this last step, am thinking of insisting she comes straight home - I really do not feel I can trust her. Should add, I don't mind her meeting the boys as such - all the messages I've seen from them sound fine - but it is her behaviour I am worried about.

Help - what should I do? Don't want to come across as too harsh, as she will just rebel - don't wish boys to be exciting as 'forbidden fruit' and it is too easy for her to be in contact with them another way anyway. But I am really concerned about her behaviour.

I think a month without her phone isn't long enough, she has shown that she is not mature enough to have one, and she has also shown that she cannot be trusted by taking it back.

I would bin the phone. If she needs one, I would buy her a basic one with no option for BBM or Facebook, and I would monitor it like a hawk.

She sounds one step away from doing something she'd really regret like sending nude photos. And what if the conversations she has already had were made public? As a teacher, I can see it ending really badly for your DD.

If she wants to mix with boys (understandable) then perhaps sign her up for a youth club?

Thanks - glad to see an outside viewpoint agreeing with me, as she just keeps on at me that it is nothing, I am massively over-reacting etc.

Should add that the same friend's mum told me yesterday, that dd has been making similarly inappropriate sexualised banter on the (public) bus - so much so that the head girl from the school came over and told her to stop, as letting the school down in her uniform etc - dd doesn't know I know this, and when asked if she spoke in this manner on the bus, denied it.

Aaargh.

I have three DD's, my youngest is 15.

I concentrated on explaining the double standards directed at girls, which whilst are wrong, what impression do you want.

One of your points (B) crosses this, as i think that you have to be careful whilst explaining how to keep yourself safe, you don't put the blame on the victim or excuse the behavior from the boy, if he acts on it, without full consent.

My middle DD went through this stage at about the same age, she is a very calm, sensible 17 year old, who is single and unlike her friends, who didn't go through this stage (with very smug mother's who had my DD set on a path to Whoredom), she hasn't been pregnant etc, already.

I will say that my DD still has banter with close male friends that is sexual, it isn't an indication of anything else. Just because you wouldn't do something doesn't mean that it would suit your DD to not do it also, just not at this age.

I would concentrate of self respect and self esteem, but i don't think that girls should limit their behavior (within reason) just so that other's can think they are "nice girls", females have suffered enough from that form of social control.

She is a little young and possibly not emotionally intelligent for this behavior to be happening, yet.

Don't go down the severe punishment route, or the never trusting her, if anything build up your relationship and become a friend as well as a parent, that is the best way to keep her safe.

X post with your other point, she is using her attractiveness and blossoming sexuality to get attention, work on overcoming that and why she needs to be doing what she is doing, to make herself stand out from her friends.

Point out that we all have sex (including you), but it isn't the be all and end all of who we are (that will put her off for life) .

Gosh, that sounds like quite the conundrum. She's very lucky to have a mum like you that cares and is willing to engage with this problem.

I'm not a mum (yet, 15 weeks pregnant hence lurking all over the mumsnet boards), but I was a very rebellious teenager from a loving and stable family. It wasn't anything my parents did or didn't do, it was just in my nature to push the boundaries of acceptable behaviour for a while. What I remember was that as much as I could hear the love and concern in my parents voices as they kept taking to me and loving me, I was pretty good at ignoring it most of it for a long time.

I'm wondering if there is an older teenager or young woman that you both know, someone you can let know what's going on, and someone she respects somewhat. I remember I was very interested in the adult lives and experiences of the young women I viewed I'm my life as independent and cool (older teenagers, girls who had left school and had jobs etc), but was often a little too shy and self concious to ask questions, I guess that's normal when you want to seem so wordly and confident! Unfortunately mums aren't often viewed as cool or interesting or with valid viewpoints.

People I did listen to were my older, cooler cousins. I devoured their stories and experiences, and payed a bit more attention when they told me I was acting like a dick.

Anyways, I did grow out of it. Learnt to be a decent human and my family all still love each other and get on. She'll be ok! She will make some stupid mistakes along the way, we all do, it's how we learn to not do those stupid things. Good luck.

Get rid of the blackberry and get her a basic phone.

Why has she only a sketchy idea of normal relationships? You need to talk to her about this.

The problem with saying 'I went through this and grew out of it' is that when we grew up, there wouldn't be a potential permanent public record of our mistakes.

This sort of behaviour might lead to her sending nude pics, or make her vulnerable to an online sex predator, especially if this is what she is like on Facebook.

sashh - I'm not sure why she has "only a sketchy idea of normal relationships" - as I suggested, I have suspected recently she might have mild Aspergers - she has always found the social side of things v hard, is somewhat obsessive in her interests etc. But that's only a guess - no official diagnosis (and she herself is not aware that this is a possibility, so I can't use this to explain why her perceptions and the generally accepted view might not match up - of course, I could introduce the topic, but that's material for another whole thread...).

Are there books/websites that 'explain' boy-girl relationships, flirting etc? She's a voracious reader and I think might believe it more if she sees it written down by an anonymous stranger.

I have tried talking to her - she looked slightly horrified when I explained that her df and I had not exchanged anything more sexual than a look or a blush before we went out together, even though we both fancied each other loads - and that her 'banter' would get her sacked from a job as an employee. But am not confident she really 'gets' it yet.

I'll leave the boy-girl relationships references to others - but you might refer her to the CEOP \link{http://www.thinkuknow.co.uk/\thinkuknow} website which has a lot of material (including videos) for youngsters. (It also has material for parents and carers so you could have a good scoot over it yourself beforehand.)

It's well worth any youngster looking at the site and reading the material even if they haven't got the specific issues that your DD has.

Thanks, I'll look at that.

So - should I ban dd from meeting up with the boys her friends after school next week? Or is that too mean?

Ideally, I'd like the boys to disappear to the ends of the earth dd not to see the boys until this has all died down and they've forgotten her ghastly comments.

I have a 13 year old daughter who hates loosing her phone. But if she had found it and used it, then I would remove it permanently. I don't think you are being harsh but 13 year old's think we are when they loose something of importance to them.

If she's shown that she can't be trusted maybe removing the blackberry and replacing with a basic phone with no BBM would be a better idea.

I loathe BBM and won't have it. I'd sell the phone and get a cheapie. I also have all my kids' passwords for FB and they are friends with me on it. They know that if I think there is a need, I will check their messages etc.

Thanks, very useful in strengthening my resolve...

Any more/

Esp - should I let her meet the boys her friends, or ban her until I think she's understood that just because sex happens, doesn't mean you need to talk about it at all times...?

I think the ban from seeing her friends (if that's what you decide to do) must be about the repeated breach of trust - she knew the phone was removed and use it anyway. Ok, so you forgot to hide it, but she's 13, not 3. She's old enough to understand that she should take the consequences of her actions and to resist temptation. If she wilfully disregards you, particularly with regard to a punishment for an earlier infraction, that is doubly wrong.

I think it would be worth stopping her seeing her friends next week and I agree that the phone with BBM should go, since she's proved that she's not mature enough to use it sensibly.

Yes, ban her from going out next week. This can be a direct result of her sneaking on to the phone.

I wouldn't have punished her.You are punishing her for being naive. which is partly your doing by sending her to a n all girls school.She basically made a mistake.I would have talked to her about the possible remifications of her actions.At 13 she is hormones on a stick and is probably obsessed with sex. The more you try to control her the more cunning shje will become

Birds, your posts were amazing, and wise.

I don't know whether Scarleteen might be a bit more full-on than you wanted, OP? It's certainly informative about sex.

I honestly think you need to start this conversation with your DD again, from the beginning, with no blame, no removing her phone and no stoping her seeing her friends.

Unless she understands why you are worried, she will find ways to carrying on behaving in a risky way.

There is a brilliant couple of chapters in 'how to talk to teens so they will listen' about sitting down with teens and getting them to respect why they need to behave differently. Then and only then are the consequences if they don't do what you agreed.

As it is she will resent her punishment and carry on behaving inappropriately, she'll just be more devious.

Thanks - have 'how to talk so teens etc' so will look up that ch - I have read it before and it looks very good.

To be fair, I made it clear from day 1 that I was not cross, but was worried - because she was putting herself at risk. I have not removed her phone to 'punish' her - as I don't think at all that she was deliberately doing anything wrong, she was just behaving inappropriately because she didn't know any better. But I made it clear that until I felt confident that she had understood how her behaviour was inappropriate, she wouldn't get her phone back. (Obviously, to dd it still FELT like a punishment.)

Now, of course, she HAS done something wrong - namely used her phone when she knew she was not allowed to. That is not her being 'naive' - that is her deliberately disobeying.

But I do totally agree, as I said in my OP, that 'punishment' is not the solution - it's not as though I can prevent her meeting these or other boys/men everywhere she goes. What I want is her to understand how her behaviour was inappropriate and learn from that. Taking away the phone/internet was just the means to achieve that - by giving her some time/space away from contact with these boys and the computer to think, and the removal of something she valued so that she could see it was 'serious' and not something she could just ignore.

But xylem and StarBall - please suggest other ways to get the message across without removing the phone - am very open to other ideas.

How would I go about making it clear where the boundaries on appropriate behaviour with the opposite sex lie, to one who doesn't just 'get' them naturally?? I really am having difficulty with this.

And xylem - most girls at all girls school do not behave like this! I went to one and this is not typical!

And Birdsgottafly - agree and thanks for v helpful posts. :)

The thing is if you remove her phone and internet access at home, she will use her friends phones or other computers.If you stop her from meeting the boy after school, will she bunk out of lessons to meet him?
I have been there with my DS2 and suddenly, scarily you realise that actually, if they set their mind to it, you cannot 'control' them in the way you can control a small child.Luckily DS 2 was/is a sensible boy and basically wants to please and has good role models.
I think the best advice is keeping lines of communication open and be aware that kids are going to make mistakes.

You sound like a great Mum OP for caring and wanting to do the right thing, don't be hard on yourself, you are not being too hard on her about the phone, she needs to prove to you she's responsible enough to have one and therefore 'gets' what the problems are here, as well as unrstanding that if you say no then you mean it.

I would try to avoid banning her from seeing anyone, but really have a long chat with her, go right back to the start as calmly as possible and explain to her that you are really looking out for her safety, this is not so much about punishment but about helping her understand the world out there, so if you havent already you might need to start being very clear about sex and relationships, contraception etc etc. Try as best you can not to patronise her, dont say anything along the lines of you're too young to understand as this will stop her listening entirely. If you can use some examples from your own teen years, or embelish them, whatever you need to do to speak on her level about teenage experiences and how sometimes it pays to be cautious.

I also really recommend she goes to a group, club or does some organised activity that is mixed so she starts to have more regular contact with boys as this will only help her understand them and figure out her own boundaries too. She gets to socialise and you start to get some peace of mind too.

garlicsmutty - had a look at the Scarleteen website - definitely looks too old for now, but thanks.

I'm looking more for something that explains how to flirt, how to say 'no' to stuff that you're not ready for, that explains the risks involved in sexual activity - and ideally just 'normal' boy-girl interaction. A bit like a cross between a good teen romance, a sex-ed site aimed at young teens and a feminist treatise.

Does anything like that exist?

And yes, as Birds understood, I think she is doing it because of a lack of (social) confidence, self-esteem, so enjoying the short-cut to positive attention, as she views it, by getting boys to fancy her. She thinks talking about sex a lot makes her look 'cool' as opposed to desperate. Unfortunately, the reverse is true.