AIBU to claim back my wages for an internship?

[InternNC]

I've name changed but I'm a regular on the boards. I've searched for similar topics but couldn't find any so apologies if this has been covered before, as it broke in the news a few weeks ago.

4 years ago and fresh out of uni mid-recession with a fulfilling but useless-for-the-job-market degree, I interned at a small company for 5 weeks or so, hopeful about job potential from it. When I arrived however, it became clear that there was permanently an unpaid position, filled up by a conveyer belt of interns, and it was made clear there was no job at the end of it.

After 5 weeks I moved on, having gained some experience and a good insight into the graduate job market.

Now, I've been alerted by DH that the HRMC is investigating internships from up to 5/6 years ago and claiming the national minimum wage for the interns' time at the companies. I've read the literature and it does seem that my circumstances do entitle me to claim 5 weeks worth of full time minimum wage back from the company.

See www.gov.uk/employment-rights-for-interns and www.internaware.org/claim-back-your-pay/ and a Guardian story here www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/apr/12/unpaid-interns-100-firms-investigated

DH is keen for me to write to the company claiming the wages. I feel very awkward doing so as its a small company, but then if it was illegal then its not my problem, right? I'm quite non-confrontational so I could be shying away from doing something I'm entitled to. I could really, really use the money as well as we're in a difficult financial situation at the moment.

WIBU to claim the money back?

If you didn't get any job out of them and are never likely to, then go for it.

if it was illegal then its not my problem, right?

Exactly! I'd claim, without giving them a second thought.

Thanks for your replies. The letter I drafted seems so grabby but I will just send it off and see!

I've just skimmed through the Guardian article, but it does't say the companies were acting illegally. It says they might have been, and HMRC should therefore investigate.

If HMRC does investigate and finds those companies to have been acting illegally, you might have a case to go back to them, but if you write at this stage, I can't see why they would leap to pay you.

But presumably, the reason you took that internship was to learn the ropes and get a bit of experience in an area you were interested in working in. Did you get that? Are you still working in that area and did your internship help you get there? If so, I would concentrate on that and focus on the positive things you got out of it, rather than losing too much sleep and time chasing over a few weeks worth of money that you knew at the time you weren't going to get.

I would understand taking a stand on this if they moved the goalposts after you signed up to it and then refused to pay you, but you knew what you were getting in to before you started there.

I'm prepared to be flamed on this..!

Don't ask you don't get! Good luck

I just typed a long reply and the Internet went down. Grrr.

this daily fail article reports on Arcadia and 9 other companies having to back pay 167 unpaid interns as ordered by the HMRC, so there are instances of it happening, but part of my unease is that it is so ambiguous.

The intern aware website seems adamant I'm entitled to it.

If the job had got me anywhere I'd probably not consider it, but it didn't. It was impossible for me to sustain unpaid work in London, I had to cover rent and my savings ran out almost instantly, I had no financial support from my family, they couldn't afford it. I lived at home for free but my train fare was £600ish for a month. I knew I wouldn't be paid but the possibility of getting a job there was hinted at before my arrival. After I arrived it was clear I was on the conveyer belt. My duties were definitely staff duties and not learning duties.

I do feel uneasy about it but a few weeks worth of money is over 1k which would help us soooo much.

What can you lose? Go for it.

I think it is highly unlikely that a small company would pay anything back, Arcadia is obviously a huge multi-million pound company; was it an official 'internship' or just described as 'work experience'. How did you get the position in the first place, ie: was it through someone you knew? It could take years (literally) to get anything back, even if you were entitled to it & as you say the wording is very ambiguous, and cause huge amounts of stress. Personally I wouldn't want to invest the time & energy doing that.

The company may have acted illegally but be prepared for consequences. Could your claim and perhaps others push this company over the edge as the economy is tough

I'm with sparechange. I run a small company and we do employ interns whom we pay well but actually I think the value accrues almost entirely to them. Perhaps that's just our experience but we put a lot of time and effort into recruiting and supporting our interns and it certainly takes effort on our part but the value is for an unexperienced person, becoming work-ready, having something to put on their CV, learning the ropes. What we get out of it is limited - we do it because it's helpful to people in our industry. And because occasionally we find someone we'd like to employ. Not for the day to day benefit.

I would say if you got to put it on your CV, you should take it for what it is and move on.

I think they should have paid your expenses though.

It was advertised as an internship, through an online recruitment platform for that industry.

DH doesn't think they are likely to lose too much (as i did worry about them being a small business) as not everyone is aware of the possibility. On the other hand, if they've broken the law, which the intern aware website claims they have, then why shouldn't they pay up. He also thinks it would just take 1 letter to them and failing that just 1 letter to HMRC who Would the case on my behalf. I'm not up for lots of time and effort really at the moment due to other circumstances but if it really is just a couple of letters I could do that and see what happens.

quangle your company sounds fair. I did get experience of the job market out of it and would have got more out of it it I'd have been able to do more unpaid work in the same sector, but they really did see it as a free worker, I wasn't taught anything besides a quick example of what was expected and was shown the previous interns work as a model of what was expected of me, so it does feel, in retrospect, that they were using me instead of an employee. It wasn't particularly difficult work or any effort on their part, iyswim, as they were happy to use my work without editing or changing or supervising anything. I've done unpaid work experience at another firm, and that was completely different, I spent time in different roles and departments, shadowed, was taught lots of things, all which took up time. This was different.

I agree with Quangle. If you'd been there a year or so and got bucked out with nary a "thank you" at the end I'd be all for it. But ultimately you were there 5 weeks, observed and learnt some stuff you were able to discuss at interviews and expand your cv in return for doing a bit of photocopying and tea rounds. In the grand scheme of things, you got an ok deal.

That's why I feel conflicted. One the one hand, I knew what I was getting into and I had an OK time and learnt stuff. On the other hand, what they did/may still be doing is illegal and at best, unethical and if you break the law shouldn't you face the consequences?

The DWP page seems extremely clear. This is going to be interesting!

I'm pleased to see it. Companies have been getting free staff by calling them interns or volunteers for years now. It's exploitation.

Look, this intern malarkey is a new thing. Before the start of this century, employers took on trainees, who were both paid for doing the work and given training. Calling trainees 'interns' doesn't make them worth any less. An employer who hires you for no pay IS NOT DOING YOU A FAVOUR, they're raking advantage.

Before the start of this century, you could start as a trainee and reasonably expect to still be working for the same firm 20-30 years later. It made sense to invest in people for the long haul. Now jobs are more competitive and it's harder to get a foot in the door, things like five weeks work experience can be a great help.

I do not agree with year long internships, which are exploitative and clearly only people with outside support can afford to do. That's before you take into account the fact the firm is depriving someone of a full time, permanent job. But a few weeks work experience isn't that bad. By the time OP was au fait with the firm and able to complete more advanced tasks she would've been away and they were looking for someone else; she (sorry OP!) cost them money in terms of staff hours to train and supervise, which they wouldn't have seen "back", iyswim.

There is a helpline for advice. I would follow up, if they are failing to pay NMW then they should be tackled by HMRC.

By the time OP was au fait with the firm and able to complete more advanced tasks she would've been away and they were looking for someone else

You see, that's why this is a 'straw man' argument. Either they need somebody to do a junior role or they don't. This firm takes interns on a rolling basis, every 5 or 6 weeks. Therefore it's a role that needs filling. Therefore they should be paying the person who fills it.

If a junior becomes au fait with the firm and able to complete more advanced tasks, the junior's ready for a better position. She gets promoted or moves elsewhere: either way, a junior vacancy now exists. So they hire somebody new.

Internships are no more than a way of weaselling out of paying the junior; there is no excuse. Firms are getting away with it because there are too few jobs - a problem that isn't helped by the practice of getting free workers!