Proposal that people with donor cards are given priority over those that don't when needing an organ?

[angelos02]

DM Link if you want more detail:
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2359972/Is-fair-dont-Organ-donors-jump-transplant-waiting-list-NHS-plans-boost-donation-levels.html

I can't see why anyone would argue against this. I do think an exception would have to be made for people that can't be donors due to medical reasons. Apart from that, why on earth not?

I'm still trying to think about another medical procedure that makes people feel they have the right to condem people for or another part of pur bodies people feel they have the right to dictate what should be done with it.

No one took me up on the hair/wig point.

I just don't understand the idea that anyone would prefer their organs to rot rather than save someone's life. I can't get my head around it.

How completely brilliant to know that, although you're dying, someone else is going to live on because of you. I can't imagine any better thought to have in my last moments personally.

I dont think there is an analogy unless it includes the fact that the person is dead and has no interest in what happens to the body parts.

My feeling on the matter, like many on this thread, is that the organ donor register should be opt out rather than opt in.

I also feel that who gets an organ should be on the basis of need. BUT if two people are basically tied for need of the same organ then if one of them is a registered organ donor then they should get it.

There are plenty of reasons why someone couldn't give blood. I've quite often not been able to produce enough blood for all of the blood tests a doctor has requested so a pint would be completely out of the question. But there's no reason why other people couldn't make use of my organs once I'm dead as long as they are in a decent state and I am on the organ register (I wouldn't be surprised if all they wanted was my corneas though).

yup analogy to abortion is shit.

abortion = denying someone's birth when you have a huge ongoing vested interest in the decision, and it will affect you profoundly

refusing to donate organs after death = denying someone already living the chance to continue life when you have no vested interest in the decision and it will affect you not one iota.

But you make the decision when you are alive, so the knowledge or the fear of having your organs taken while your body is kept running can have an effect on some people.

It can have an effect on the family who are left too, depending on their feelings.

People are saying that the knowledge that you can save someone else's life in your dying moments would be a good thing, and many relatives of donors say they were comforted by the fact that a part of their loved one has helped someone else.Those are entirely reasonable feelings, but I don't see how you can believe those feelings to be valid if you can't alos see that there are times when the decision that's made will affect someone that's alive.

It's not true to say that you have no vested interest in the decision and that it won't affect you one iota just because the deed will actually be done after your brain is dead.

Has anyone actually said they are afraid of that? Or is this one of those what ifs that is baseless?

We make decisions every day that affect us in profound ways.

Some people smoke even though they know it is harming them.....

But at the end of the day your decisions have consequences.

I am pretty happy for the consequence of being ruled by a fear of having your organs removed after death is that you are unable to accept a donor organ yourself.

Similarly with religious issues. If you religion is more important than prolonging someone else's life then it is more important than prolonging your own.

If your family have an issue with it and you feel enough for them that you won't donate organs then you feel enough to not accept them.

I have no problem with people making decision and owning them and baring the consequences.

To think you have the right to accept a donated organ without being willing to donate is simply not reasonable.

Sorry, patsy I must've missed your hair/wig post. Was it about growing hair long and cutting it off and donating it to a charity that makes wigs by any chance? If so, yep, tried it, they didn't want it. Too many products (dye, perm) for them to accept it. BUT as I said upthread, I am a selfish living human, I won't grow my hair to bum length, keeping it virgin, just to benefit a cancer patient. I won't eat a vegetarian diet, be teetotal or not smoke, just to preserve my organs, but if I am able to do something without massively inconveniencing myself, I will do it. Although, I do volunteer, and am on the bone marrow register and tomorrow I'll be seeing a out getting on the living organs register, so I guess I'm not entirely selfish... Hmm.

The scenario of "is this person really dead" that I posted about earlier was definitely a real fear when I was a youngster, and I do know other people for whom it was a concern.

I'm more informed now, yes, but there are plenty of people still with that little niggle in the back of their minds. And I don't think these people should be called selfish. People have fears and they are not always rational fears, but are still real to the person with that fear.

Not really that relevant to the discussion, but actually many people who are ill enough to need transplants themselves often can donate organs, including those with CF. It used to be quite common to transplant heart and lungs into CF patients, taking the CF patient's heart and donating that to a heart failure patients.

If you agree with donation on principle, but don't think you'd be eligible, why not join the register anyway and let the doctors make that decision, should it ever come to it?

There is a really good list of questions and answers here, but the questions relating specifically to pre-existing conditions/medical eligibility are here:

30. Can I be a donor if I have an existing medical condition?

Yes, in most circumstances. Having a medical condition does not necessarily prevent a person from becoming an organ or tissue donor. The decision about whether some or all organs or tissue are suitable for transplant is made by a healthcare professional, taking into account your medical history.

There are only two conditions where organ donation is ruled out completely. A person cannot become an organ or tissue donor if they have been diagnosed with HIV or have, or are suspected of having, CJD.

31. Can I be a donor if I have been turned down to donate blood?

Yes. The decision about whether some or all organs or tissue are suitable for transplant is always made by a specialist, taking into account your medical history. There may be specific reasons why it has not been possible to donate blood, such as having had a blood transfusion or having had hepatitis in the past. Or there may be reasons why you could not give blood because of your health at the time - sometimes a simple thing like a cold or medication that you are taking can prevent you from donating blood.

32. Who can join the NHS Organ Donor Register?

Everyone irrespective of age or health and who is considered legally competent can join the NHS Organ Donor Register. Joining the Register expresses a wish to help others by donating organs for use in transplantation after death but importantly, joining the Register also is a way to give legal consent or authorisation for donation to take place.

Your entry in the Register provides legal consent for the donation of your organs. Children can register but their parents, guardians or those with parental responsibility will be asked to provide their consent should the child's death lead to donation being considered.

Eccentrica I like the way you seem to treat people with reduced mental capacity as property of the state.

Your statement 'if you cant understand the question ''what would you like done to your organs after your death?'' your're not going to care one way or the other beggars belief. So you don't believe in human rights of the individual but seem to put the pursuit of a potential donor organ above all else. Your stance is as inherently selfish as the very people you are rallying against as you give no concession to protecting the vunreable in society.

I often wonder how many NOK cannot bring themselves to sign consent for organ removal when a loved one is in this situation and therefore lots of potential organs are wasted due to this. As I said before I would like to see making it legally binding that your organs can be removed without consent from NOK if you carry a donor card before moving towards an opt-out system. It just seems safer to me and gives more protection to vunreable members of society.

bakingaddict Did you write that response before I'd actually posted mine?

Your reply is unbelievably disingenous.

I have no idea what you're talking about when you say "I like the way you seem to treat people with reduced mental capacity as property of the state." What a crock.

I didn't express a preference for any one of them, I said they were three ways of responding to your question as to what should happen to people without the capacity to consent, each of which is better than the current opt-in system.

None of these is "my stance" as far as you know, as I didn't say which one I would prefer, and I certainly said nothing to justify your statement "So you don't believe in human rights of the individual but seem to put the pursuit of a potential donor organ above all else." my god, I've rarely encountered such dishonesty even in online arguments. Shameful.

If you just said that there was a blanket ban on anyone with "reduced mental capacity" (however the hell you propose to measure that) donating organs, and just had an opt-out system for everyone else, that would still obviously be hugely better than the current system.

I am writing this reply for the benefit of anyone else who might be following the thread as I have no expectation that you will actually respond to what I've written, rather than a straw man of your own invention.

I'll donate anything anyone wants

But no, I don't care if the recipient is prepared to be a donor themselves

I'd want it to go to the person who needed it most

(Surely though, those most likely to need donated organs are those most unlikely to be able to be donors?)

Meryl: please see my message two below, and in any case, there is absolutely no reason why someone with, for example, a lung disease that could eventually lead to a transplant getting hit by a car six years earlier!

As I wrote earlier up the thread, I am in the process of getting listed for a transplant. I am also on the donor register, as are most others I know who are awaiting transplants. You can't fail to realise how desperate the shortage situation is when you sit in a waiting room full of patients waiting for transplants and realise that half will die before even getting that transplant.

I'm a donor, i don't care who gets my organs as long as they help. I do think all ID cards or licenses should include whether a donor or not on them as part of the registry process.

I know quite a few people I've had to tell to formally sign up and make their wishes clear, all of which who've said they wished they'd just been given the option when receiving passport, licence etc instead because it hasn't crossed their mind beforehand.

I will be totally transparent. I work for NHS Blood and Transplant and it's great that people are debating organ donation. 3 people die every day in the UK in need of an organ transplant.
There are a few areas that have been misreported in the Daily Mail. The new strategy does not propose moving to a system of reciprocity, where those on the Organ Donor Register receive higher priority if they need to be placed on the transplant waiting list. The strategy does however call for national debates to test public attitudes to a range of more radical actions which could increase the number of organ donors.

One of our professors has sent a letter the Daily Mail clarifying and correcting some of the points raised both in the news article and in the comment piece. In the meantime, please read:
www.organdonation.nhs.uk/newsroom/statements_and_stances/statements/odt_strategy.asp

Transplants aren't nearly that simple. It isn't a matter of needing an organ and being chosen for your morals. You can only be chosen for your biological suitability, and given the shortage of organs, it will go to the person who is most likely to have success with it, regardless of their morals.

How can it be any other way?

Thanks for that attofa. Very interesting reading.

Re-use and recycle me.

My brain is already useless, but whatever would be useful for others I'd be happy to help.

I only insist that they check first that I'm properly dead...

Thanks for that link attofa. Very interesting and reminded me to go to the website and update my details as I've moved house! I ended up reading the FAQs which are especially interesting after the discussion here.

Emotional blackmail and 'incentives' to illicit the 'correct' behaviour which involve placement value and judgement on other peoples beliefs have no place in the NHS.

Thats got nothing to do with whether this is for organ donation or any other form of healthcare.

Its simply unethical because it removes free choice and is coercive. Consent should always be completely free from pressure, whether you agree with the patient or not.

This sounds great in theory. But so does communism.

In practice,I don't feel comfortable about it.

Nor do I feel comfortable that in a couple of years the Welsh will be harvested for their organs whilst the rest of the UK gladly takes them without taking the steps towards presumed consent themselves.

Organ donation - I'm 100% for it. I carry a card. I still don't like the idea of presumed consent. Not least because a lot of people will now "opt out" because their right to choose has been removed.

The comparison with communism is very true.

Its too open to abuse and for the system to be manipulated; and not to the benefit of potential donors or their relatives. Opting out relies on knowledge and having the ability to do this. It puts certain groups at more risk than others; vulnerable groups.

I think it will erode trust in doctors.

I think that you need to persuade people of the merits of organ donation. As difficult and frustrating as that may be. I don't think its an issue that should be forced in this way.

YABU to propose a priority system. NHS treatments should always be given in strict order of clinical need, not in order of who "deserves" it as a nice/helpful/good person.

this suggestion is all wrong. im confused as to why we(all of society) seem to be hell bent on keeping people alive. why? its natural to die - there is too much medelling already. And before anyone has a go at me because i dont agree with it - i have refused blood before and would definitely refuse an organ - taking other peoples body parts is wrong - doesnt matter they are dead.