Is it right to make a woman feel unclean?

[camel1]

I was saying 'thank you' to a male colleague and touched his upper arm as a reinforcement of that thanks. He recoiled in disgust, his body language, his facial expression and his yelp surprised me so much that I apologised profusely. The incident happened in front of many children, as I am a teacher at a school. And within a minute he had shook hands with a male colleague. Whether it was his intention or not, I felt that he felt I was unclean. I was/am greatly upset by this. I understand that his cultural or religious beliefs does not permit him to touch women, or vice versa. However, I have lived in many different countries and cultures, and I adhered to their cultural rules and would never have reacted in such an offensive way. What do you think?

[Yika]

OP I would be very hurt and offended. It happened to me once with an orthodox rabbi. We were introduced and I offered my hand to shake his hand. He stood there like a stone and I felt mortified. I was young and ignorant of the idea that some religions consider women to be (potentually) ritually unclean. I find it an insulting and outdated belief, but ok, if this is your colleagues firm belief, then so be it. But he was very rude to humiliate you by shaking the other person's hand in front of you.

[camel1]

He waved his hand in pardon, and discussed what he was being thanked about, stopping of course to shake hands with a male colleague walking by.

[pigletmania]

Regina you are right, it's about the inferior position of women, and that he shook the other mans hand and onthe ops really confirms tat I think

[RevoltingPeasant]

OP I think he was rude.

I do not like being touched - I have a thing about it. I'm also very ticklish so I sometimes jump if someone touches me unexpectedly. And I'd never touch a colleague unless they were also a good friend.

But. People do. Laying a hand briefly on someone's arm as you say thanks is totally normal workplace behaviour, even if not that common. Someone did it to me the other week (she was from Texas and very friendly).

In that situation, you control your reaction. If he didn't see you coming and jumped, then he could have controlled himself better. The point is, he treated you as though you were dirty in front of students, embarrassing you.

And if he didn't have the self-control to do that, then later he should have had a quiet word. It is very obvious that reacting to you that way could make you feel bad and he should have smoothed things over.

Since it's work, I'd keep my distance, keep my hands very much to myself, be cool and polite with him, and see what happens.

[culturemulcher]

No matter what his cultural sensitivities, he was being a bit impolite in over-reacting to what was, after all, a reflex gesture of friendly thanks.

[culturemulcher]

In other words, exactly what Revolting said

[gordyslovesheep]

welcome to MN OP - interesting first ever post

anyway they way to KNOW if somebody wants to be touched is to assume they DON'T and either ask or take your cue from them - let them offer their hand to you

I can't abide touchy feely stuff so I would recoil from it as well - I am a humanist female if that helps

[jacks365]

Piglet camel didn't try to shake his hand and thats the difference. I'm happy to shake hands but can't abide people touching me, I do recoil from them if they did what camel did.

Camel you don't know why he recoiled you are still assuming. Why not just ask him.

[RevoltingPeasant]

I also agree with hackmum.

OP actually I think a crucial thing here is, did he see you coming?

Cos if he was turning away and suddenly felt a tap on his shoulder, he might've just jumped. But if he saw you coming towards him and then recoiled in disgust, I think that is ruder, as he had chance to respond appropriately.

[ZZZenagain]

she was saying thank you to him so presumably he was looking at her and then she touched his arm. Doesn't sound as if she tapped him on the arm from behind tbh

[Gruntfuttock]

camel1 your OP said that "I understand that his cultural or religious beliefs does not permit him to touch women, or vice versa." and you have since clarified that you did not know this at the time you touched him. So how is it you know now?
Is it because someone told you - because it doesn't sound as if the man himself has explained his reaction? What I'm getting at is, maybe he just dislikes being touched, apart from shaking hands which is a more mutual and formal thing unless you know for sure that it is cultural/religious, in which case who told you?

Apols for rambling. I hope you managed to fathom what I'm asking.

[Purple2012]

Just because we don't understand other people's religion/culture it doesn't mean we shouldn't respect it.

Im my job I deal with a lot of Muslim families and women that wear face coverings. Whenever I am doing something that involves the woman the husband will always do the talking. Now to me a woman being subservient is something that I wouldn't put up with for me. However this is how they live and if I was to insist on speaking only to the woman I would probably make her feel very uncomfortable. I even had a row with a colleague as she tried to do this and I felt it was disrespectful.

I don't understand why/how this is a part of a particular religion/culture but I totally respect peoples right to live their life how they want to.

[Lovecat]

I think his reaction was astonishingly rude and I would have taken him up on it, rather than apologise. By apologising you have let him know that his ridiculous reaction (rather than just to say - please don't touch me, my religion/whatever doesn't allow it) is acceptable and he'll carry on with such OTT madness.

I say that as someone who hates being touched and used to work with a woman who would walk up behind you at your desk and put her arms around your shoulders as she bent down to talk to you in an 'intimate' fashion and then do the same as she departed. It made me want to claw my skin off, but I didn't react to it as - guess what? I'm not a crazer, I'm polite and I didn't want her to feel bad about what for her was a 'normal' (she did it to everybody) way of being friendly.

He was out of order and YANBU.

[camel1]

Thank you for all your comments. It has been very interesting to hear so many points of view, and incredibly helpful. It is clear that not everyone likes to be touched/tapped in appreciation, and I will be very mindful of this. Obviously, avoidance is out of the question, but I will keep an arms length distance when I need to request a task. Thank you again

[diddl]

I think that the OP was astonishingly rude to touch him tbh.

[catslave]

We have had this thread before... I can't search well because I am on my phone and it is a PITA. Something about refusing to shake her hand then shaking a male colleague's hand... Nope, got it:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/1449593-To-feel-a-bit-miffed-about-I-cant-shake-hands-with-women-for-religious-reasons

[TheToysAreALIVEITellThee]

Mumsnet is crammed with threads from women who don't like uninvited male attention of any sort. Men can also feel offended about uninvited female attention of any sort, for whatever reason. Yabu

[FreudiansSlipper]

no of course he should not have reacted in such a way. if you were working with people who all shared the same belief then you would be more aware

there was no reason for him to display such a reaction

[Latara]

I think it was a rude reaction whatever his beliefs - he should have either politely backed away slightly with a smile or shrugged it off but maybe explained to you later that he prefers women not to touch him due to his beliefs.

I find it surprising though because i have male colleagues who are very religious Muslims and when i've touched them ie. tapped them on the shoulder to get their attention they don't mind at all.

But if i knew a man minded then i wouldn't even tap them on the shoulder, and if i accidentally did then i would apologise. I wouldn't expect a rude reaction like that though.

Also some people just don't like being touched by the opposite sex; my Mum has a bad reaction to men touching her due to her bad childhood; and she would be likely to respond to some men like the man did to the OP.

[Latara]

So both YANBU and YABU!!

[GoshAnneGorilla]

at how this thread has allowed some to happily rant about "foreigners" and their outdated ways.

Not touching the opposite sex has nothing to do with women being unclean. Nothing.

It is just viewed as politeness and appropriate boundaries. Much as all cultures have concepts of what this entails.

It does sound like the man's reaction was a bit OTT, but you'd obviously crossed a boundary for him.

[Boomba]

Who, over the age of 7, taps people on the shoulder to get their attention?!

[Gruntfuttock]

It is unusual, Boomba. Going up to them and using their name is sufficient I would've thought.

[ZZZenagain]

working wirh ear phones

[TheToysAreALIVEITellThee]

Man touches woman uninvited - outrage

Woman touches man uninvited - man is rude

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