Is it right to make a woman feel unclean?

[camel1]

I was saying 'thank you' to a male colleague and touched his upper arm as a reinforcement of that thanks. He recoiled in disgust, his body language, his facial expression and his yelp surprised me so much that I apologised profusely. The incident happened in front of many children, as I am a teacher at a school. And within a minute he had shook hands with a male colleague. Whether it was his intention or not, I felt that he felt I was unclean. I was/am greatly upset by this. I understand that his cultural or religious beliefs does not permit him to touch women, or vice versa. However, I have lived in many different countries and cultures, and I adhered to their cultural rules and would never have reacted in such an offensive way. What do you think?

[burberryqueen]

yep

[edam]

I think he was a bit rude but probably couldn't control his reaction. Shouldn't have gone on to shake hands with someone else within a minute though, that really is making an aggressive point.

I do get that some people don't like to be touched by people they haven't invited to touch them - I don't, particularly. But his reaction was extreme and I think many people would have said something to acknowledge that you didn't mean any harm. It's just polite. Expressing disgust at someone touching you is rude. Saying 'sorry, I don't like to be touched' is an appropriate response to being touched.

I would talk to your manager but only to try to negotiate a resolution that allows both parties to express their feelings and make sure there's no lasting ill-feeling.

[UptheChimney]

YANBU

I find the whole attitude of some religions to women to be offensive. This an presumably lives in this country, and wants to remain doing so. If so, he needs to understand certain notions of equality.

And that women are actually human beings. Not unclean, corrupt, or corrupting.

[ZZZenagain]

I have no idea which religious or cultural background this man has. Some people have mentioned experiences with Muslim men at the workplace so I think they are assuming he is Muslim. From my own experience of living and working in a Muslim country, I would be a bit surprised if this man was a Muslim. Mind you the Muslim world is large so my experiences in Morocco might not be similar in this regard to experiences made in perhaps Pakistan or Kuala Lumpur.

In any case where people from different cultures work together, cross-cultural misunderstandings are of course possible but IME it is usually not very difficult for colleagues to sort these out between themselves with friendliness and courtesy. This is what most people do naturally IME. I expect that at the time this event happened, OP was not aware that in his culture her touching his arm would be inappropriate and has since googled it and found out.

These things happen, you can cause offence and be offended but they are not huge matters usually. I nthe end if you are kind, people recognise it and that is the main thing in dealing with other people IMO. We cannot expect the whole world to know all about our faiths or cultures but we can expect friendliness and kindness between colleagues

[TheToysAreALIVEITellThee]

OP absolutely do not involve your line manager in this. Tis extreme to say the least.

Just don't touch the guy in future, verbally express your feelings and be assured that will be enough. Job done.

[TheToysAreALIVEITellThee]

Yes Upthechimney. hes a forriner in our country so should abide by our rules innit

[LoveBeingUpAt4InTheMorning]

I still do t understand why you touched him thb, there really is no reason to touch anyone at work

[ChunkyPickle]

Really? - when thanking a colleague does no-one shake hands and pat the upper arm? I know that when people have been very grateful they've done that to me, and I know I've felt the urge when I've been very grateful (and may well have done it, I don't remember)

Religious or not I think it's rude - I mistakenly shook the hand of the father of the bride at a Malaysian wedding, and whilst he was a bit shocked, and stopped the handshake very quickly he still was very polite and thanked me for coming.

I think Cultures need to respect each other, and in the UK culture (whatever you take that to mean) people sometimes touch each other. If you don't want that, you need to explain - anything else is rude (as would be explaining, and someone still touching you)

[TheToysAreALIVEITellThee]

Chunky - would you expect a woman to have to explain to a man why she doesnt want to be touched by him?

[diddl]

Shaking hands-fine.

Patting the arm-isn't that well, a little patronising?

[burberryqueen]

creepy and patronising yes

[GoshAnneGorilla]

Upthechimney "if he wants to carry on doing so"

You think people should be deported for not following John Bull "British norms"?!

Do you know how depressing and disturbing it is on every single thread of this sort, there are always people implying that being from a different culture or religion means you are basically "on notice" and it is perfectly acceptable to kick you out of the country.

Even if you were born here and/or have citizenship.

[PuppyMonkey]

OMG you PATTED HIS UPPER ARM how could you???? That's the most outrageous invasion of privacy I've ever heard

Would sooner a pat on the arm than a limp sweaty handshake any day, myself.

[Fakebook]

I think any kind of physical contact apart from hand shaking in a work place should be banned.
I remember a girl I used to work with who used to stroke my upper arms, my hair whilst talking to me and used to give massages out of the blue. First few times I did flinch in shock, not disgust...it's not normal for a colleague to touch you like this. Why couldn't you give a high five? If he didnt reciprocate, you could've left it.

[ZZZenagain]

if someone doesn't want you to touch them, surely they also don't want their hand shaken?

[Morloth]

It doesnt actually matter why the man did not like to be touched. He did not wish to be and reacted to an unwelcome touch. He may well have over reacted but as someone who does not like to be touched by anyone outside of a very select group of people I can sympathize.

I do shake hands, but as was mentioned at the start of the thread that is an offer not an assumption and it is an offer I have declined on occasion.

[RevoltingPeasant]

You think people should be deported for not following John Bull "British norms"?!

Gosh, you know you seem to be assuming the OP is British. (I know you're not replying to her there.) Perhaps she comes from a culture where touching people is more normal?

I lived and worked in Switzerland a few years back, where men kiss female colleagues regularly - a handshake and peck on the cheek was quite normal when saying good-bye for the weekend etc, or when meeting someone you might work closely with.

The first time it happened to me and this man lunged for my face I was totally taken aback! I never got comfortable with it. But, you know, that was what they did. I learnt to get on with it, or to hold my hand firmly to signal that I'd only shake hands, whilst being very polite.

I don't know if this chap was Muslim or not, but I did know a Muslim guy once who didn't want to shake women's hands and handled it brilliantly. He used to smile, put up one hand deprecatingly, and then make a charming little bow. It was respectful and amusing and didn't get anyone's back up.

There are ways to handle this kind of thing. Recoiling in revulsion from a colleague who is thanking you in public is not one of them.

[RevoltingPeasant]

Fakebook, a high five? Have you been teleported in from an early naughties management consultancy firm?

[Zipitydooda]

He was rude not to explain his reaction. Maybe he was hoping you hadn't noticed??

I don't think it's an unclean thing more of a modesty reason but if he'd explained apologetically then I bet you would have been understanding and not posted here. He was rude.

[diddl]

"if someone doesn't want you to touch them, surely they also don't want their hand shaken?"

No, but as a pp put, a proffered hand can be refused & an explanation given.

People don't tend to grab unoutstretched hands to shake, do they?

[Onesleeptillwembley]

Someone's ridiculous beliefs should not be allowed to be a cover for sheer rudeness. And yes, I'll be picked up on the use of the word ridiculous, but believing one sector of society is inferior is ridiculous.

[TheToysAreALIVEITellThee]

To be fair he probably wasn't expecting it hence his reaction. Think how you'd react if say, someone grabbed your tit, this was probably his 'tit' equivalent.