...to think long term abuse, can cause PTSD

[ElenorRigby]

..... and the person who was originally abused can in turn become violent due PTSD caused by that abuse.

Background:
A have heard a neighbour being badly verbally abused and her pleading with him (her husband) to stop what he was doing on a handful occasions over the last year. She's a quiet sweet girl. I talked to a friend of theirs asking if he was all right with her but the friend looked nonplussed so I backed off.

Recently things have changed.

Its was DP who first heard her aggressively screaming at her husband. I didn't believe it as she's such a quiet type who usually looks downtrodden in her husbands presence.

Then yesterday I heard her for myself screaming manically at him, she sounded like she was going to totally loose it. This time he looked subdued.

I then recalled another example
A friend of mine (much older, now in her 60's) told me how she was beaten by her husband intermittently during their first 20 years of marriage. Then one day her husband was menacing to her, she flipped and struck him on the head leaving him stunned and on the ground she then threatened him and told him if ever went to hit her again she'd kill him.

I know this a sensitive discussion for AIBU but I wanted a wide breadth of opinion.

I was even more intrigued when I found PTSD causing violent behaviour is downplayed and also the American and UK military pressure military mental health workers "refrain from giving a diagnosis of PTSD" in favour of a less serious diagnoses.

Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder: The evil our military refuses to see

Veteran's Administration cover up of PTSD

Yes, PTSD can be caused by long-term abuse.

That doesn't mean that's what those two had. I'm not in a position to know.

PTSD is one specific MH condition, not a 'catch all' for all MH conditions that might manifest themselves after eithe a single or a series of repeated traumatic incidents.

Yes, it needs Proper diagnosis and treatment. The military have, in last few years, revolutionised their approach to MH issues (and as the examples in the linked article seem to be from several tours ago, they may not reflect current practice). The highly regarded Kings reports show the seriousness which the military now attaches to MH issues, and their close work with charities such as Combat Stress also shows the change.

It can but I woukd be wary of unqualified diagnosis through a wall :/

I was diagnosed with PTSD, caused by the abuse I suffered as a child.
I would be hesitant to diagnose anyone with it on the basis of one example as it's far, far more complex and damaging than simply getting angry and violent at someone.
but yes, trauma and long term abuse can contribute to PTSD.

Just to be clear I am not trying to diagnose anyone but just wondering
does long term abuse contribute to causing PTSD which in turn causes in uncharacteristic violent outbursts. I gave 2 examples of people I know who have been abused and are/have displayed uncharacteristic aggression.

Oh btw I don't listen through walls, the conflicts overheard between my neighbours have happened when I've been out in the back garden

Are women who kill partners after years abuse actually have undiagnosed PTSD?

Does downplaying of the violent outbursts of some soldiers with PTSD keep the Military off the hook for the mental damage caused by warfare to soldiers?

There's probably more the military could do, but soldiers (and sailors and air force personnel) can be medically discharged under exactly the same arrangements for pension for Service-attributable conditions for MH issues in exactly the same way as for other conditions/injuries caused or exacerbated by their service.

PTSD often can, but does not necessarily, cause violent outbursts. I think it is unlikely that PTSD is a major or frequent factor in those who attack/kill abusive partners.

The second incident you describe sounds more like a self defence thing rather than anything else.

Yes abuse can contribute towards PTSD but no you can't work out if someone has it based on a snap shot and no it does not always mean violence.

Weirdly this is a question I hear lots usually from abusers themselves trying to find further ways to punish the person who removed them from their lives to stop them continuing abusing them and there children.

Aunt Stella why do you think PTSD is unlikely to be "a major or frequent factor in those who attack/kill abusive partners."

Why do you think people do attack/kill abusive partners?

[[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battered_person_syndrome Battered person syndrome.

Diagnosis....

DSM-IV-TR does not provide a distinct diagnostic category for reactions to battering. Rather the diverse reactions of battered women are treated as separate diagnoses, for example, posttraumatic stress disorder (PTSD) or depression.

Symptomology.

The abused fears for his/her life and/or the lives of his/her children (if present).

The abused has an irrational belief that the abuser is omnipresent and omniscient.]]

Because violent outbursts are not synonymous with PTSD. It may be associated in some cases, but violent outbursts not a key diagnostic criteria for this specific condition. It is not a 'catch all' diagnosis.

I do not dispute that MH issues can be precipitated by the situations you describe, nor that MH issues may be a reason for violent outbursts. But not that this one specific condition, of which awareness is so much higher now, is going to be a relevant diagnosis for acts which are not part of its typical manifestation.

Who set's the diagnostic criteria?

Is true cognitive neuroscience in it's infancy. Is it true we have a lot more to learn?

Also is their any recognised scientific reason for abused people who kill/attack long term abusive partners or is it just "slow burn" or voodoo?

Is there a reason you are trying to link domestic abuse with PTSD?

Ask somebody actually qualified. I would say that's not PTSD, it's abuse. It doesn't need another label. When I've taked to a therapist previously, they confirmed that PTSD is quite ringfenced to the millitary.

There are too many people with a googling-diagnose disorder.

Is there a reason you are trying to link domestic abuse with PTSD?

Yes curiosity.

I'm really curious for a science based answer to why did 2 gentle souls become violent/aggressive after long term (months to years) abuse?

Some people do flip and kill their abusers. It is actually a legal defence to murder (only partial though - so you won't get off scot free but you can be convicted of manslaughter rather than murder which carries a mandatory life sentence). The defence is called 'loss of control' but is often nicknamed the 'battered wife defence' because women quite often snap and kill their abusive husbands, more often than you might think.

'Battered person syndrome' is a recognised psychological condition - see here - I made a mistake, the defence is not loss of control but diminished responsibility in English law.

Many ordinary people think people flip/snap after long term stress-ors (abuse) be they abused women/men/combat soldiers etc

But, but, but is there any science based answer as to why they do?

Meh maybe this is the wrong thread/forum to ask that question...

I agree with Elenor - it doesn't need a label, they need help

I do think that PTSD can be brought on by long term abuse of any kind, where the proof is? No idea but surely, there has to be some sort of long term affect on a person. Shouting all the time, the shift in it being him to her....

My son suffers from PTSD due to various operations, waking from them, the brain remembers things your conscious self doesn't..... it's all very personal and individual.

domestic violence relationships can be very complex at times the victim also becomes violent. many women who appear strong would not take any crap from others are in violent relationships they just can not see who is in control

but there is always always a perpetrator, there is always one in control it is not always easy for others to see who is but they will know

i have worked with a woman who is very feisty ,quite aggressive in her manner at times she was in a relationship she considered volatile and she would give back as good as she got, her words. she woke up to find her partner holding a knife up to her throat he has stepped the violence up and it was then she knew she had to get out

maybe read up more on domestic violence and perpetrators behaviour

"the brain remembers things your conscious self doesn't"

I agree.

Brain injury can be experiential as well as physical

Your not just curious are you?

My guess is your either writing about the subject and can't be arsed to do your own homework

Or, your trying to prove that someone who has previously been abused is a risk to someone you care about.

Lyingwitch I'm afraid that your counsellor isn't quite correct - PTSD isn't confined to the military and is aligned to abusive situations. I work in a MH/homelessness setting and countless clients of ours have been given that diagnosis following abuse/trauma, in some cases from many years previously. Often it's related to sexual abuse as a child, in some cases DV.

But I'm less bothered by the definition than what support systems are in place to help those who are suffering from trauma and flashbacks and who are finding it hard to maintain every day life. The military have in the past not been supported effectively through mainstream MH services but IME that seems to be changing for the better - esp as charities like Help The Heroes are picking up the slack left by the NHS.

I'm extremely leery of diagnosis through kitchen walls, but this is one reasonable assumption I think from OP's description. OP - the question is, are you in a position to help/make things different? What is your relationship like with your neighbour - are you friendly enough to ask if she's all right?

I lived next to a DV couple for 18 months but both of them were unapproachable, I thought it wasn't really my business but when he kiced 7 bells out of her rang the police. I think that's all that you can really do without getting too entangled?

kicked

Have you reported any of the abuse you've overheard?

YANBU