Ex wants to take DD to Australia

[skippy84]

Looking for some honest opinions on this please. Ex and I split this time last year (his decision) we have a daughter who is two (three in October) since the split I have tried to facilitate as much contact between them as possible he has her a couple of nights a week and sees her in-between we also do things together the three of us at weekends or go out for dinner during the week. It has been hard for me to have this much contact with him particularly early on when I was very hurt over the split but I have always been very conscious of not letting my feelings get in the way of them having a great relationship.

My dilemma is this; his only sister and her family emigrated last week to Australia for work. Since he found out about their plans he has been asking to take DD to Australia for two weeks in the winter to see them. I have told him from the start that I am not comfortable with this. I think she is too young to be away from her main caregiver for that length of time. The main reason is that it's too far away and I am terrified that i wouldn't be able to get to her in an emergency. Also I think a flight of that length is too much to ask of a very active toddler for the sake of a two week holiday. He is taking this badly and keeps pushing the subject. I wouldn't mind but when his sister lived an hour up the road he only brought DD to see them maybe twice in the last year so it's not like they're particularly close. I have tried to be reasonable and even suggested if he was really set on it I would fly out with them and visit friends in another part of Australia for the two weeks just to get over my fear of her being so far away. He said he didn't want this either.

He brought this up again today and said he feels I am
just saying no to get at him or punish him for breaking up with me when this is really not the case at all. I feel like I have been so accommodating to him in all this and he just throws it back in my face because he can't get his own way in this scenario. I just wish he would accept my decision and stop pushing it.

AIBU?

I think it's a mad suggestion from him. She will be just three, she won't remember it, the journey is hellish and two weeks is NOT enough to make it worth while. Took me at least a week to get over jet lag. I would not go back to Australia for less than a month.

If his family have emigrated they will still be there in a few years time when she will get a lot more out of trip plus will be able to speak to you if she is missing you.

"She takes on the bulk of the responsibility for their child's well being and spends the majority of the her time with her. Therefore the child will rely on her more for her emotional and physical well-being and struggle more being away from her for two weeks than she would her father"

One thing is certain - if a mother is absolutely determined that a child will struggle without her, than that will become a self fulfilling prophecy. And I'm not talking about the OP here, more the tone and content of Goldmandra's post. A secure child (from the age of 3-4 probably, depending on the child) with two loving parents who do not put their anxiety onto the child will not struggle without one of them for 2 weeks. But a parent who does do this will most likely result in a child who struggles emotionally in general, not just with holidays.

If he would like to take her I can't see a problem, it will be a fun trip, a bit of an adventure and a chance for your DD to see her cousins/auntie etc.

The flight is fine, I have done it many times with my children from six months in age up. It will take a few days to catch up but this is not a big deal.

I am sure there will come a time when you wish to take your DD on a holiday where your XH won't be able to have contact, how would you feel if he said no to you doing this?

IMHO you are trying to punish him.

If you are a seasoned traveller or going first class maybe it gets easier to tolerate the journey but I have done it four times and found it a horrible experience, especially with a short stop off. My daughter was just 2. I would not do anything like that again.

She is so young, I can't see what she will get out of the experience. Surely it is much better to wait and spend all that money on a holiday that she can enjoy or at least remember?

I would not feel comfortable with anyone taking my dc (3 and 5) that distance, for a fortnight, without me. That includes df!

I am not clingy in the slightest. It would be a straight no from me and that would be that. Yanbu.

I imagine he's pissed because while he is here and having contact you kindly view him as 'equal' but as soon as something like this is happening when you won't be involved he's suddenly 'not so equal'...

I'll bet he's annoyed that you are basically saying he won't be able to look after his own child for two weeks without you. Would you appreciate his involvement if you decided to take the child away with you for two weeks on your own? I'm sure you would not like him 'allowing' or 'disallowing'.

It's not going to be fun for you and it will be a tough couple of weeks but everything you have said could be turned around and said to you if you decided to go away. What if there was an emergency and he couldn't get to his child etc... tis exactly the same.. is your ex going to be attending all your holidays too?

if a mother is absolutely determined that a child will struggle without her, than that will become a self fulfilling prophecy.

I don't know where that was plucked from but I'm glad that you have clarified that it is not about the OP. She has clearly made every effort to support her ex's relationship with her daughter.

She remains, however, this child's primary care giver and she has every right to call herself such.

The fact that a child is more used to being with one parent than another and that one knows the details of the child's needs and routines better doesn't make the other any less of a parent. It's just a fact of life that very small children gain comfort from being with the person who is their most consistent and enduring carer. Why is acknowledging that construed as a determination that the child will fail without them?

Has it now become politically incorrect to acknowledge that children have and need primary care givers (sometimes more than one) just in case some parents who are not in this role feel disenfranchised?

I have some sympathy for op. You are not necessarily a clinging man hating child abuser if you have some doubts about how your ex will cope with full on full time care of a very small child in unfamiliar environment.

I don't know whether it is 'learned helplessness', genuinely being shit or being disabled by the over clingy mother etc but I have experience of many fathers not being so great at full on care of small children over long periods of time.

My ex left our daughter in a cloth nappy for six hours whilst I was sitting an exam. She had been left in cold soaking nappy for hours. It never occured to him to change her.

When I came home from a day trip and went to freezer to get a pre prepared toddler meal of spag bol as I was too knackered to cook, I found he had eaten it as there was nothing else in the fridge and it didn't occur to him to go shopping.

These are just two of many examples where he failed to even think about her basic physical needs, despite being a highly educated and I assume intelligent man. Hence ex.

So I think there can often be a real issue of concern about just how 'equal' parents are. If the op was really this awful person who thinks that just because she is the mother she is right, do you really think she would be posting here?

But the bottom line is - she is far too young, this is a stupid, crazy expensive idea. She can have any number of lovely,shorter holidays with her dad in the UK.

And btw the English courts are increasingly relying on Australian research which shows that over night stays away from primary carers are not necessarily in the best interests of pre school age children and can be very destablising and stressful. I think this is more work of Jennifer MacKintosh. I have had it used against me a few times now when representing fathers who are not primary carers.

"Has it now become politically incorrect to acknowledge that children have and need primary care givers (sometimes more than one) just in case some parents who are not in this role feel disenfranchised?"

It's not about how the parent feels, it should be about the child. For such a young child, imo it isn't a problem so much to think about primary carer etc etc. What I said initially which led to this line of discussion, was that this can often become an issue when one parent sticks to the "primary carer" line beyond the yound child stage. This is when it becomes more about the adult than the child. And not about the child's welfare, but about the parent wanting to feel "primary".

Yes, and as research is now showing it does matter very much to the child that there are not long periods of separation from the primary carer. With children so young it is quite difficult to achieve 'equal parenting'.

One parent may be perfectly competent for an afternoon or one overnight but would struggle for longer. This does matter when a child can't communicate well with words.

Agreed - the only problem is when the parent can't/won't move on from this line of thinking as the child develops.

I have a 2 year old dd, my dp (her dd) is very involved in caring for her, and I have every confidence in his ability to do so. I still think 2 weeks is too long for her to be away from me, her primary carer. A few nights would be fine, though. I think we encourage confidence in our dc by allowing them to be appropriately attached to us.

*her df, obviously, not dd.

Of course, there is a real risk when one parent is too emotionally invested in being the 'primary' carer, it doesn't work so well when a child is a teenager!

This does happen quite a lot, or at least it does in the cases I see.

But I don't think it is an inappropriate concern for a pre school child and I don't see any signs that this particular op is heading to be one of 'those' parents - quite the reverse, she seems to be going out of her way to make things work, at no small cost to her own emotional stability.

It's not about how the parent feels, it should be about the child.

That is exactly my point.

If you're certain he would come back and he hasn't a history of being negligent with her on contact weekends, I'd let her go. Our summers are very nice and he would be her primary carer whilst she is here. Our DD still has good (but admittedly vague) memories of a trip we made when she was that age .

If you let her go make sure you have it in writing signed by home that this is expressly a two week HOLIDAY. Have the dates of departure and dates if return included in the agreement and gave it signed by home, you and possibly a witness too.

You would not believe the bullshit lies some people tell the authorities when it comes to international Hague proceedings. I know you feel that he would bring her back but us better to be safe than sorry.

For more information read New York lawyer, Heresy Morley's blog on international travel and red flags/precautions.

Jeremy Morley....

My daughter lived in Australia from the age of 2 1/2 to 3 1/2. She is now 8 and sadly has no memories of that time at all.

I also found the summers in Perth oppressive and no fun at all with toddler. Too hot to go out for most of the day - Christmas Day was spent indoors with air con on as it was over 40 degrees outside. We finally went outside at 7pm.

I think an older child would get a lot out of such a trip but I doubt most 3 year olds would be much more than tired, hot and confused.

"If you let her go make sure you have it in writing signed by home that this is expressly a two week HOLIDAY. Have the dates of departure and dates if return included in the agreement and gave it signed by home, you and possibly a witness too"

Oh FGS

For a child this age, I think 2 weeks away from either parent is not something that they can emotionally process very well. An overnight stay here and there is fine but 2 weeks is a long time to be away from any parent.

My DS is 5 and has only ever tolerated overnight sleepovers at his GPs, the next morning he asks MIL to bring him back to mummy and daddy. I would love for him to have a long weekend at his GPs but he just doesn't cope well being away from me and DH.

I guessing that even at this age, his emotional security derives from both his parents being a constant fixed presence. If either/or both of us are not around then it causes him some anxiety. Only the OP knows how her child will cope with this separation and that alone should form the basis of her decision.

spero you've made some good points and I do agree with you. My DH is a very clever man but will neglect to think of the basic things sometimes that you or I will automatically do. Maybe that is the problem - there is an inherent thought process that 'we' (usually the female partner) will sort it out. However, there are many men that have taken sole care of the child from baby years that are perfectly capable and will think of things automatically and this is perhaps because they haven't got that back-up subconsciously, so they do have to think for themselves.

I do think in this case if the father takes the child, he will have sole care and will be perfectly capable of thinking of basic things because he will have too.

I understand your concerns op. I would not be comfortable either. She is two and Australia is not France... Done trip myself with children. Would be worried about her age and whether she would come back.
Would expect to be considered unreasonable but so be it....

I've only read the OP so that I'm not biased by anybody else's response. I'd say this:

Your daughter's 2. That's very young. Too young for a really long flight and truly, what is SHE going to get out of this visit? Your ex could visit before and after and she probably won't even have noticed that he wasn't there, she so young.

He doesn't own Australia. Tell him that. You made a very viable offer and he turned it down. Why?

I think when your DD is 5+ she could get something out of a trip that long but for now, no.

I don't think you're being unreasonable at all.

Important sorry alllnewtaketwo....do you have personal experience with what can happen when a parent skips the country with a child on the pretense that they were simply going on holiday?

Did you mean to be do rude ad to assume Im simply talking out of my arse when you don't know me from Adam?