...to say hoorah and about time to the change in guiding pledges. No more Queen or God obligatory.

[Punkatheart]

I ran a brownie group for a while. Loved it. But I had a huge problem and some heated discussion - with a fellow leader who thought I was indeed being unreasonable.

I am an atheist Quaker (yes, we do exist) and I am most definitely not a Royalist. So I did not want to pledge to either. In fact, it's what prevented me making them final step and eventually, in part, for me leaving.

But now:

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/i-promise-to-be-true-to-myself-and-develop-my-beliefs-girl-guides-drop-religious-reference-but-pledge-to-self-and-the-queen-8664110.html

Hoorah! It may stop the preconception among many that it is a religious organisation. It is not. Or that it has to have to Queen involved. Volunteers are desperately needed - so it needs to grow and develop with the times.

Does anyone else feel passionately either way? Either as a volunteer or a parent? I know we had girls of all faiths and my other leader wanted to do the Lord's prayer at each meeting - about which I became very angry...

We also can't cling to traditions blindly. The world adapts. Slavery and cock-fighting were also once traditional. Tradition has to be assessed, not kept for its own sake.

I am pleased too because I would like my daughter to go and we are not Christians or Royalists so felt that she might feel left out. I think the emphasis should be in being good universal citizens and this will bring it closer to being more inclusive.

I don't recollect that guiding had badges in slavery and cock-fighting. Have the Scouts kept them?

I'm glad that after 22 years I won't have to lie every time I say my promise.
It's good we have a promise that is inclusive to all - whether they be religious or not.

The promise has changed 11 times, it has adapted to the times and girls an women involved. Things change but at it's core it is still the same.

'Arthur' of course a child can have a religion . A 5 year old isn't in brownies and rainbows have a different promise again. Most children at 7 are mature enough to make decisions gor themselves about what they like or don't like. Similarly for what they believe or not.

"But we have to face the fact that there are many faiths and it is important that guiding is not seen as a purely Christian organisation. It's not and it needs to be inclusive."

I don't think there was any reference to a specifically Christian God.

I would imagine that Muslims would be very happy with the old wording.

I didn't really believe the god stuff in the Brownie Guide pledge, but I liked it anyway. Made it seem Edwardian or C.S. Lewis ish or something. And I liked the idea of a queen.

I don't think you need to believe wholeheartedly. It's not a religion, just has some religious trappings.

So YABU.

YABU. This is why I won't be sending my DC to guides if they are run by people like you. What on earth happened to the general idea of tolerance for all & all beliefs?

I'm pleased

I thought it was ridiculous that a child would be excluded from a whole heap of fun and useful stuff unless they were prepared to lie.

its about time.

Lord Baden-Powell began with Christians in mind and he did change his mindset to want to include all religions. But yes, 'to God' did imply a Christian God and my leader trying to make all the brownies say the Lord's Prayer just enhanced this.

I had two Muslim girls and no - they didn't feel comfortable with the term God. Theirs has a different name. So all faiths or one with none is a much better fit.

To whom are you referring, Lady Celia?

I thought that guiding missed the point today, as nearly all the main religions all have the same god, which is why you see a lot of Muslim girls in the guides.

I am mixed Jewish/Christian and have Muslim friends its all the same god, where we all differ is Jesus.

Hindu, Buddhist they have many gods but I can't imagine they would have a problem with the wording, so basically Guiding has gone for the atheist, which oddly I am, but I respect that people have there beliefs< i have mine and mine is no more proved than theirs as I have not gone to heaven or not as the case may be to prove it to myself....

that said I don't think there is a heaven but until death I won't know...or I won't know as I am dead...put is this way i would be happy to be disproved :) but I don't think I will.

I do hope that was not aimed at me, LadyCelia. I put a huge amount of love and time into my brownie pack. I wrote plays for them, I helped to build self-esteem, I took them on trips and I always listened and was interested in things they had to say - including about religions. We had trips out to a church, a synagogue and a mosque - to learn about other people's religions. I am certainly not intolerant or believe that my beliefs should be anyone else's. I would certainly not push any agenda but then my other leader should not have pushed Christianity. I believe in guiding being neutral in that respect, but it is not incompatible with spirituality, which does not have to be about religion.

Paganism is a religion, missing. Not one God there. You also sound more like an agnostic than an atheist - as you would like proof.

Religion is complex and as it has shown here, it can be incendiary. So I believe in tolerance. I'm a Quaker after all - which to me is more of a way of life than a religion. But I just do not believe that the guiding movement should be a religious movement. That is alienates some and religion is a private a passionate thing.

Also the new promise does say 'develop my beliefs' which is hugely inclusive.

So I hope that I was a good leader and it is indeed 'people like me' who volunteer and have a very good relationship with the parents.

I understand the cosy and comforting idea that guiding has that old-fashioned vibe but yes, if I am asked to pledge to God and I don't believe in God - then that is a lie and I am not prepared to do that. That's not intolerance - it's a personal choice.

"I had two Muslim girls and no - they didn't feel comfortable with the term God. Theirs has a different name. So all faiths or one with none is a much better fit."

Allah is just Arabic for God. If you believe that there is only one God, then God is God, so to speak. It's not a different God.

I didn't say it was a different god, Patpig. I understand fully that it is the semantics of a name. I just noted how the Muslim girls felt. It was their opinion not mine. Perhaps it was enhanced by my other leader pushing Christianity so strongly - it might have been a strong factor that also made them feel uncomfortable. They felt that the God mentioned was a Christian God. I just feel that the new promise simply cuts out all this problem and allows all faiths, all beliefs to have fun cooking marshmallows over a flame, doing origami and playing running games. The joy, inclusion, creativity and nurturing is what brownies was to me.

It is standard Muslim belief that Christians worship the same God; they just have different doctrines.

This is nothing to do with including religious minorities, and everything to do with being right-on.

What happened to the Woodcraft Folk? That used to be where Guardian-readers sent their kids.

I disagree, Toad. It is more move on than right on. It is simply changing with the times. It is a huge change and I would assume it has not been done lightly and has actually been done with a lot of consultation and thought, to reflect a modern society.

Calling people Guardian-readers is a little patronising and just means very little. Better to articulate the points and discuss why it offends you so much. I genuinely don't see the problem in changing the promise. What does right-on mean to you?

On they are still around, toad. Lots of lovely girl guides v woodcraft folk threads all over mn. . It's a shame that the promise has been changed, as we have one less thing to argue over now but I'm sure there's still room for 'militaristic' to spice up the 'debate'.

I'm a little sad to see the promise change, as it will always be the one that my head reverts to, no matter how many girls I enrol with the new one (I've been using a new one for three years which is very similar to the new UK one, but I still have to stick up a crib sheet on the wall behind the girls so that I don't revert to 'my' promise).

I like it. I said last year that the UK couldn't hold out on the god thing when most of the girl guides around the world had switched it to 'beliefs' yonks ago, so I'm pleased they have caught up. Most have incorporated a state or country element (ours promise to be true to themselves, their beliefs and Canada, and to take action for a better world) so the UK is in line with the rest of WAGGGS there.

Yay, girl guides. Removing barriers to inclusion (even if they are in your parent's head) is a good thing.

(And yes, it's not about being right-on, it's about reflecting our membership accurately. )

I love the woodcraft folk though. They just don't like me much, which I find hilarious in a free thinking right-on tree hugging love your brother peace out woo kinda way.

I read through this and found no sense of right-on...just an open intelligent discussion:

www.girlguiding.org.uk/about_us/key_information/promise_faqs.aspx

Good point, prissy! We have caught up and yes, I have lots of things in my head, like all my Catholic upbringing, that turns to default...

This is the current Canadian pledge:

I promise to do my best,
To be true to myself, my beliefs, and Canada.
I will take action for a better world
And respect the Guiding Law.

I really like it, and although dd forgot it within days of saying it like most guides probably do, I think that it felt meaningful when she actually took the pledge. I'm not sure what pledging to 'develop my beliefs' actually means. It looks like the new UK pledge is based (except for the Queen bit!) on the Australian pledge:

I promise that I will do my best
To be true to myself and develop my beliefs
To serve my community and Australia
And live by the Guide Law

New UK version:
I promise that I will do my best:
To be true to myself and develop my beliefs,
To serve the Queen and my community,
To help other people and
To keep the Guide law

Yep, Muslim here, Allah is God and I will happily use both terms. I won't speculate as to why those girls felt uncomfortable using it, but there's no reason why Muslims can't use the word God.

Punkatheart,

It means trying to move with the times without having much insight into what you're actually doing.

I love our Canadian promise.

Toad, it's interesting that you think that it's nothing to do with day to day inclusion and current membership, and it being some sort of meaningless pc-ism. Can I ask what you are basing that on? If you are currently involved in guiding as a leader, or as a parent, it would be great to understand why you think it's meaningless? I know that we spend a lot of time (like, about three months) working on what the promise means with our new members, and it's always the specific references to god that have been problematic for both adult and youth members.

Since I moved to a country where they use 'beliefs' and not 'god', I've found it much easier to represent guiding as an inclusive organization - and we can use it as the starting point to promote mutual respect whatever an individual's beliefs...

All very right-on.