We encourage children in our cafe BUT

[childfriendlycafeowner]

I hope you don't mind us asking any readers for their opinion on child behaviour in public places.

We run a small cafe in a small town, and we love doing it (opened up 4 months ago). The previous owners did not encourage children and families, we do, we bought high chairs and do what we can to make families feel welcome. But today two girls came in with a baby and a toddler, my guess is the toddler was 2. From the moment she arrived the screamed, not crying because she was upset but screaming because I guess she liked the sound of her own voice. We made comments to the mum in the hope she would take the hint that the child was disturbing all the other customers but her comment was "she is a little tinker isn't she" The other customers threw their food and drinks down their necks and left as quickly as they could, some complaining as they left. She did go quiet for a little while but she was screaming for probably at least half of the 1 hour plus that she was in the cafe.

When the lady came to pay we said to the lady that we are very sorry but unless she can stop her little girl disturbing all our other customers and driving them away perhaps she could sit in our outside seating area with her or not come in. We felt terrible to say this but it really was a terrible din that upset many people.

Are we being reasonable or unreasonable. Would you tolerate your child no matter how young being so disruptive to other people in public

[MaryKatharine]

Two obviously.

[Eyesunderarock]

dev, I was responding to MaryK's post:

'I think it's interesting for us to be saying that parents of disabled children whose issues are extreme noise sensitivity and sensory based should be forced to stay at home as the world at large cant accommodate them'

when I talked about headphones and DS. He didn't make noise or scream as a matter of course, he finds lots of voices simultaneously very stressful, loud noises and the like. So with headphones he can cope.

[tabulahrasa]

'The thread was set up about noise and parenting in a café. Now it has become a debate almost exclusively about SN vs non-SN in cafés, schools, on buses, life in general.'

But they're not separate issues, some parents have children with SNs that cause them to be noisy - surely it can't be right that people think they should always leave? Yes everyone should show a bit of consideration if they can. But sometimes the only way to do something is to accept that you are going to inconvenience others, you might not like it and you'd hope that you're not causing someone else actual distress or pain and that if you noticed you were you would leave, but sometimes you just want to eat in a cafe like everybody else does.

It develops into life in general because it's the same with everything.

Your child's behaviour at playgroup upsets others, so you stop going and find something that will accept your child. They start school and are segregated, taught by untrained staff away from the class teacher and other children. Other children bully them because of their SN and staff try to justify it by saying that of course they'll deal with it but that your child should work on not making themselves stand out as a possible victim. Everywhere you go people judge your parenting and decide that you're incompetent.

Your child gets older, they can't cope with mainstream after school activities because nowhere is willing to make any allowances for them. they're placed in classes below their ability level even though it turns out that academic learning is the one thing they actually excel at because that's where the support staff are. Low level bullying is no longer acted on because your child needs to learn how to deal with other people...there's no actual teaching of that or support, they're just supposed to sink or swim. Though at least by now the judging has stopped when out or about, now people do start to realize that your child has an SN - now they ask about their medical history, in front of them, without ever acknowledging that they are in fact a living breathing person.

Because to some people your child isn't a person in the same way that others are, they're somehow different and with the implication that they are in fact lesser, not worth as much.

Parenting a child with an SN isn't somehow different to just parenting, they're all parenting and many parents have children both with and without SNs - they're not mutually exclusive worlds.

[brdgrl]

Parenting a child with an SN isn't somehow different to just parenting, they're all parenting and many parents have children both with and without SNs - they're not mutually exclusive worlds.
Tab, on this at least you and I are in total agreement.

[HelenMumsnet]

@MaryKatharine

But, Helen and Arb, I am a parent of a child with SN. That doesn't mean I think there are easy answers to it all. I'm not liking the whole to tribes thing and I don't want to go through the rest of my life thinking I now have to be a member of that team rather than that team.

Of course there aren't easy answers. Life is blinkin' complicated.

But we'd contend that, rather than separating into teams/tribes, we could all make a point of trying to be more tolerant of each other ? and we can only do that if we become more aware of the challenges others may be contending with on a daily basis.

[devientenigma]

Eyesunder, I realised you were, I was just homing in on what everyone else seems to do, the missing pieces as at the end of the day I would love all the answers for my own scenario iykwim.

[devientenigma]

I am fed up of being so isolated, my son can not attend school either so we are stuck at home 24/7 which is mainly due to his issues and not my lack of thick skin.

[brdgrl]

we can only do that if we become more aware of the challenges others may be contending with on a daily basis.

I think that this thread shows a need for that awareness on all sides, frankly. That every parent has challenges which may not be visible or may not fit neatly into a box. And that living together as a community with respect for people of all abilities and circumstances means thinking about community values and not only one's own personal circumstances or challenges in that moment.

[sherbetpips]

The reality for any owner of a cafe/restaurant/bar is that whilst you may lose the custom of the parent you will also have lost the custom of every other person who was in there that day and does not want to risk going in the 'screaming kid' cafe again. I never understand why owners allow that sort of behaviour to go on, yes the parents will be angry, especially if they are from the 'my kids are perfect how dare you criticise' camp but you will do far more damage to your business by ignoring them.
Whilst kids (with SN or not) sometimes scream, have hissy fits, make a mess, etc all the time - it is there parents who are responsible for there behaviour and if they choose not to do anything it is there issue not yours.

[salsmum]

Well said HelenHQ I have a 24 yr old daughter who is wheelchair bound...she likes to eat out with us...although her table manners are good and she is quiet and well behaved....BUT because she coughs sometimes when she eats (because of weak muscles) there are a 'certain type' of diner who finds this unacceptable ...this of course is unacceptable to me that people can't be more tolerant of her BUT that will not in any way stop us from eating out with her.

[Eyesunderarock]

Just as a happy thought, anyone remember this chap?
www.nydailynews.com/news/national/hero-waiter-give-donations-special-kids-article-1.1261702

[Lambsie]

If my son is having a screaming, lying on the floor, biting, kicking tantrum then I will take him out. If he is being his normal happy noisy, bangy, messy self then he stays and other people will have to accept this.

[tabulahrasa]

'I think that this thread shows a need for that awareness on all sides, frankly. That every parent has challenges which may not be visible or may not fit neatly into a box. And that living together as a community with respect for people of all abilities and circumstances means thinking about community values and not only one's own personal circumstances or challenges in that moment.'

I don't have an issue with that, no-one thinks that having a child with an SN should be more important than any other circumstances, ever. The problem is that if you always do what's best for a group then it is always the same people being inconvenienced . Sometimes it has to be the group that's inconvenienced for the sake of one person.

[hazeyjane]

But the child in the op was distracted, in the op's word, she had toys, she was not unhappy - she was just making lots of happy noise!

MaryKatherine - wrt your post
'I think it's interesting for us to be saying that parents of disabled children whose issues are extreme noise sensitivity and sensory based should be forced to stay at home as the world at large cant accommodate them. Then we're saying that the world at large should accommodate children with SN whose additional needs mean they cannot help but be noisy.

That's kind of an impasse then, is it not? If both are in the same environment whose needs are to be accommodated?'

As I said earlier, in environments with lots of children with sn, accomodating all needs is exactly what happens -

my example from earlier

for example ds's hydrotherapy sessions - there is child a who screeches frequently and loudly, she is excited it is how she expresses herself, there is child b with autism who is highly sensitive to noise, he has water resistant ear defenders, because the lady who runs the session knows that child a will be making a noise he doesn't like, there is ds (child c!) who hates people coming to close and being 'in his face', there is child d who is incredible over friendly and boisterous and likes splashing over to ds and trying to say hello and kiss him!

[GobbySadcase]

Everything tab said, absolutely.

And do people REALLY think we sit there blissfully oblivious to the nuisance our kids' challenging behaviours cause? Of course not. We cringe inwardly (outwardly would trigger the ignorant git at the next table giving us evils into a full scale attack) and try to manage the situation as best we can.

That doesn't mean we have less right to a family life - which includes leisure time - than ANYONE else. We compromise enough of our lives because of disability as it is.

[GobbySadcase]

And actually you'll find that parents with kids who have conflicting needs will most likely work together to see how both could be accommodated with minimum upset to either.

Obviously I'm not speaking for 'sn parents' as a homogenous mass but rather from experience of having 2 kids in special school and the subsequent birthday parties etc that potentially give rise to conflict.

[MaryKatharine]

Helen, I agree and I like to think I had empathy and understanding even before my DC4 was born. Though I know you need to walk a mile and all that. DS2 is very passive and makes very little noise full stop so he is actually the least difficult of my 4 children at 2yrs. Perhaps that will change.

I actually found life far more isolating and stressful in the months following DC3's birth. I had 3 children under 4, a husband working out of the country, I had just moved to the opposite end of the country and my mother had just been killed by a drunk driver. I would have given anything for someone to understand what I was going through so I hate the idea that anyone else could be feeling isolated.

[brdgrl]

try to manage the situation as best we can.

Yes, but. A few posters have said that they don't, and won't.

[GobbySadcase]

Actually I don't think anyone has...

[hazeyjane]

A few posters have said that they don't, and won't.

Who? Where?