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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Is this taking free speech to far?

26 replies

Redcliff · 09/06/2013 20:07

On the way home yesterday my and DS (aged 6) were walking past the local shopping centre and there was someone preaching about religion. So far pretty normal for a Saturday. But this time the man was shouting about how wrong it was for people to have sex out side of marriage and how it's wrong for children to be born out side of wedlock. He then started say "some men, they have sex with Jane, and then Mary and then Paula and that just wrong".

Now my son has two parents that love him and have a committed relationship but we are not married and there are plenty of amazing single parents out there so is it not confusing for those children to be thinking there is something wrong with that? Also don't think that talking about people having multiple sexual partners is not on for 2pm on a weekend when there are tons of kids around.

I always thought I was of the "I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it." school of thought but surly there is a time and place?

OP posts:
LaurieFairyCake · 09/06/2013 20:09

Well I disagree with him too but like you I'd defend the idiots right to say it.

And I'd choose to ignore it and wouldn't expect to limit his right to say it in a public place.

timidviper · 09/06/2013 20:13

I think the Marys, Janes and Paulas of the world should unite and demand to know which men are the guilty ones and who has told him?!

Other than that, I agree with Laurie. Your children will, over the years, hear a lot of opinions which differ from yours.

lljkk · 09/06/2013 20:17

yabu, sorry, I think it was a good opener for a conversation with your child about how even good people can have wrong beliefs.

TigOldBitties · 09/06/2013 20:19

Over the years there have been various people with similar opinions, often coming from a religious perspective, shouting in central London.

I don't agree at all with the views but I like that people have the opportunity to do this.

Redcliff · 09/06/2013 20:35

I think I was coming around to your very reasonable point of views - just ignore and if DS asked explain what I think, just like I have done about lots of things. Thanks for replying so quickly.

OP posts:
ladymariner · 09/06/2013 20:44

Tbh in this case I'd do the same as you and just ignore him.

However, surely in other cases (incitement of racial hatred for example) the right to free speech is wrong, these people shouldn't be allowed to spout their hatred. If something is wrong, it's wrong.

ExitPursuedByABear · 09/06/2013 20:45

Do which bit of free speech would you like to keep?

ReluctantBeing · 09/06/2013 20:45

I have been known to shout 'shut up' at the religious shouty people in town on a Saturday.

ladymariner · 09/06/2013 21:05

Is that question or me, Exit? If so then I'd say all of it.....what I wouldn't keep is the right of somebody to incite harm to others simply because they don't agree with how they live or what they believe in.

ExitPursuedByABear · 09/06/2013 21:09

No it was to the OP. Free speech is just that. Someone spouting shite is just that. But they have the right to do it. And others are free to judge them.

Balaboosta · 09/06/2013 21:42

Yep, Exit.

Redcliff · 09/06/2013 23:24

Exit (great name by the way) - I guess it wasn't free speech that bothered me as such but the shouting out about sex where there was lots of children around just like you have free speech but no shouting "fire" if there isn't one. Bur I would much rather live in a society where people can talk about things then not and the price you pay for that (I realise now) is not always being happy with what?s said.

OP posts:
wannabedomesticgoddess · 09/06/2013 23:31

I actually agree with the OP.

Theres free speech, and then theres inappropriateness.

If that man had been shouting "too many white men have sex with black women" would it be ok?

I object to my children being classed as bastards (even if he didnt use that word) no matter who is saying it. And at some point it has to stop.

claraschu · 09/06/2013 23:53

A good chance to teach your child that there are a lot of idiots in the world, and many of them are religious.

Children are not shocked by the word "sex" (unless their parents are), and 6 year olds don't really know what sex is, however accurate their knowledge of reproduction might be.

xylem8 · 10/06/2013 00:20

So he was preaching the bible in a Christian Country where the church and the state are intertwined.

wannabedomesticgoddess · 10/06/2013 00:31

He was preaching about sex and promiscuity in a high street at 2pm.

If it had been on tv the complaints would have flooded in.

claraschu · 10/06/2013 00:50

He can say what he wants. I can explain to my kids what nonsense it is, (if they even notice him). It is never too soon to get children to think critically about anything they hear, whether it's on TV, from their friends, on the street, in church, from a parent, or from a teacher.

caroldecker · 10/06/2013 01:03

Sorry - he has the right - also the right to say women should stay at home or too many black people - even if i disagree.
If there were laws preventing people saying things most people disagree with, how would the slave liberationists or suffragettes get their message across because at the time these were not majority opinions.

fuckingscabies · 10/06/2013 01:19

'“You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant.” Harlan Ellison.

No, you are not entitled to your opinion. This is good for thought; theconversation.com/no-youre-not-entitled-to-your-opinion-9978

fuckingscabies · 10/06/2013 01:20
  • food for thought
fuckingscabies · 10/06/2013 01:26

If you don't want to click the link:

Every year, I try to do at least two things with my students at least once. First, I make a point of addressing them as “philosophers” – a bit cheesy, but hopefully it encourages active learning.

Secondly, I say something like this: “I’m sure you’ve heard the expression ‘everyone is entitled to their opinion.’ Perhaps you’ve even said it yourself, maybe to head off an argument or bring one to a close. Well, as soon as you walk into this room, it’s no longer true. You are not entitled to your opinion. You are only entitled to what you can argue for.”

A bit harsh? Perhaps, but philosophy teachers owe it to our students to teach them how to construct and defend an argument – and to recognize when a belief has become indefensible.

The problem with “I’m entitled to my opinion” is that, all too often, it’s used to shelter beliefs that should have been abandoned. It becomes shorthand for “I can say or think whatever I like” – and by extension, continuing to argue is somehow disrespectful. And this attitude feeds, I suggest, into the false equivalence between experts and non-experts that is an increasingly pernicious feature of our public discourse.

Firstly, what’s an opinion?

Plato distinguished between opinion or common belief (doxa) and certain knowledge, and that’s still a workable distinction today: unlike “1+1=2” or “there are no square circles,” an opinion has a degree of subjectivity and uncertainty to it. But “opinion” ranges from tastes or preferences, through views about questions that concern most people such as prudence or politics, to views grounded in technical expertise, such as legal or scientific opinions.

You can’t really argue about the first kind of opinion. I’d be silly to insist that you’re wrong to think strawberry ice cream is better than chocolate. The problem is that sometimes we implicitly seem to take opinions of the second and even the third sort to be unarguable in the way questions of taste are. Perhaps that’s one reason (no doubt there are others) why enthusiastic amateurs think they’re entitled to disagree with climate scientists and immunologists and have their views “respected.”

Meryl Dorey is the leader of the Australian Vaccination Network, which despite the name is vehemently anti-vaccine. Ms. Dorey has no medical qualifications, but argues that if Bob Brown is allowed to comment on nuclear power despite not being a scientist, she should be allowed to comment on vaccines. But no-one assumes Dr. Brown is an authority on the physics of nuclear fission; his job is to comment on the policy responses to the science, not the science itself.

So what does it mean to be “entitled” to an opinion?

If “Everyone’s entitled to their opinion” just means no-one has the right to stop people thinking and saying whatever they want, then the statement is true, but fairly trivial. No one can stop you saying that vaccines cause autism, no matter how many times that claim has been disproven.

But if ‘entitled to an opinion’ means ‘entitled to have your views treated as serious candidates for the truth’ then it’s pretty clearly false. And this too is a distinction that tends to get blurred.

On Monday, the ABC’s Mediawatch program took WIN-TV Wollongong to task for running a story on a measles outbreak which included comment from – you guessed it – Meryl Dorey. In a response to a viewer complaint, WIN said that the story was “accurate, fair and balanced and presented the views of the medical practitioners and of the choice groups.” But this implies an equal right to be heard on a matter in which only one of the two parties has the relevant expertise. Again, if this was about policy responses to science, this would be reasonable. But the so-called “debate” here is about the science itself, and the “choice groups” simply don’t have a claim on air time if that’s where the disagreement is supposed to lie.

Mediawatch host Jonathan Holmes was considerably more blunt: “there’s evidence, and there’s bulldust,” and it’s no part of a reporter’s job to give bulldust equal time with serious expertise.

The response from anti-vaccination voices was predictable. On the Mediawatch site, Ms. Dorey accused the ABC of “openly calling for censorship of a scientific debate.” This response confuses not having your views taken seriously with not being allowed to hold or express those views at all – or to borrow a phrase from Andrew Brown, it “confuses losing an argument with losing the right to argue.” Again, two senses of “entitlement” to an opinion are being conflated here.

So next time you hear someone declare they’re entitled to their opinion, ask them why they think that. Chances are, if nothing else, you’ll end up having a more enjoyable conversation that way.

caroldecker · 10/06/2013 01:48

agree if the answer is scientific - but the OP's post cannot be argued scientifically - some people view sex before marriage as ok, others as sinful and will be sent to hell - no science, so both views equally valid scientifically

IsThisAGoodIdea · 10/06/2013 01:59

lljkk, he doesn't have "wrong beliefs". He has beliefs you don't share, doesn't make them wrong. Plenty of people think sex outside of marriage is wrong, it's not incomprehensibly wacky.

claraschu · 10/06/2013 02:00

It is impossible to disprove the existence of something like Hell scientifically. Does this mean that all beliefs are equally valid?

It is not equally valid scientifically to believe that people have invisible souls which will be punished for all eternity, and to believe that people's existence ends with their death.

An infinite number of things can't be disproved; this does not give them credibility.

garlicgrump · 10/06/2013 02:01

What a FABULOUS thread! Thanks, Redcliff, and thanks scabies (it's either that or 'fucking' ...!) for a meaty reply that I'm going to have to revisit when less tired.

In general, of course, I agree with Laurie and with you, now, Redcliff. Voluble loons provide excellent opportunities to teach our children about critical listening.

I used to pass a chap in Oxford Street, twice a day, who carried a placard summarising his spoken beliefs, which were that too much sitting, nuts, peas, sex and various other things lead to degradation, sickness and death. Oh, look, he's in Wikipedia! en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanley_Green I had many stimulating conversations with children about him ... and one with him: I didn't repeat that mistake!