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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To disagree with inheritance as a concept

259 replies

HeadsDownThumbsUp · 03/06/2013 22:41

Just that. I think it's odd that the concept of inheritance is barely questioned in our society.

I don't think that anyone can really talk about social mobility in a meaningful way, or interrogate the class system, while wealth is still inherited.

Inheritance IS the class system.

In my opinion, inherited wealth is incompatible with a meritocratic society. It is also add odds with entrepreneurialism, and more generally the notion that wealth is earned through hard work, and thus deserved.

Thoughts?

OP posts:
FasterStronger · 04/06/2013 18:20

ilove - boom boom Grin

greenfolder · 04/06/2013 18:28

honestly-my dh recently inherited £85000, which was his share of his parents estate- he is one of 4. His parents were cash poor and asset rich-they had a house. i dont know if it is right or wrong but we are financially secure ourselves now for the first time in our lives. and that make me very happy.

LoSiento · 04/06/2013 18:38

Green folder perhaps you should consider that not everyone will inherit £85000. Something being good for you does not make it good for society.

FoundAChopinLizt · 04/06/2013 18:42

On a global scale, many inheritances involve farming land and housing passed down and worked by many generations simultaneously. It would be very hard for a son, grandson or great grandson who had been working a farm for all their lives to be kicked out homeless because granddad had died, for it to be taken over by a possibly corrupt government and given to a random stranger.

LoSiento · 04/06/2013 18:46

Lizt there are infinite ways of running a society that has neither inheritances or forced homelessness.

vixsatis · 04/06/2013 18:46

I have paid 40% ish on everything earned. I will pay another 40% on what is left when I die.

I think that's quite a significant level of redistribution and would like to ba able to leave something to my family. Part of why I work so bloody hard is to make my child's life easier than mine

CloudsAndTrees · 04/06/2013 18:48

It doesn't make it bad for society either LoSiento.

But I would argue that one more financially stable family is good for society.

FoundAChopinLizt · 04/06/2013 18:56

LoSiento

Agreed, and a family who are subsistence farming sustainably, which many societies do, are not passing wealth, but more a way of life onto their children.

Has anyone read the book

The Moneyless Manifesto?

I found it interesting.

HeadsDownThumbsUp · 04/06/2013 19:26

Can't stick around long today, but will try to give a quick contribution.

First of all I want to offer my condolences to anyone who is recently bereaved and is going through the relevant legal and financial procedures. I understand that this an emotive topic, and I am not trying to make anyone feel uncomfortable, and I appreciate that all these decisions and issues come at a difficult time.

To those who have said that our current inheritance system is evidence of some sort of natural law:

As other posters have pointed out, other European countries all have different conventions when it comes to dividing inheritance. If inheritance was such a natural and universal concept - and emblematic of what it means to be human - then surely every society would deal with the issue in the same way? But they don't. Not even the ones that, superficially, seem to function very similarly to ours.

Nooka "I'm also not totally convinced that countries that tax at death more highly are any more equal than those that don't. The UK and the States have amongst the highest death duties and the biggest income disparities. Sweden, which has much lower income disparity (and is highly competitive) has no inheritance tax." This is interesting and I would love to know more about this. But I'm also guessing that most of the people on this threat who think that 100% tax free inheritance is a great concept aren't generally that interested in working towards a more equal society anyway.

Moreover, the urge to pass everything on to your children clearly isn't overriding - given that most people don't actually inherit very much. Are you really saying that people who don't leave a wod of assets behind when they die don't love their children as much as parents who have? Obviously not. What about philanthropists like Bill Gates, who have amassed vast fortunes and is now engaged in giving away 95% of it. Does he hate his children? Are they biologically entitled, in your view to 100% of his wealth? Is it his biological duty to pass it on to them? Does this act of philanthropy make him some sort of evil socialist bent on destroying the fabric of society and family as he know it?

On the issue of philanthropy - to those who say that if I have a problem with the concept of inheritance then it's up to me to donate inherited money to charity....Not really...That's a slightly different issue, I think. I could, of course, donate any proportion of my income or savings to charity, regardless of inheritance. Once I inherit the money, it just becomes mine, and I can do what I like with it obviously - including give it away. Again, I don't want to make this personal, but what I am set to inherit is not likely to be more than I have in savings or assets already - so if there is an onus on me to give to charity, then I think that is already there whether I inherit or not. The issue is with the perceived legitimacy of tax free inheritance in the first place (all my other income has already been taxed). I think that there is much more we could do to encourage philanthropy in general (and most people would agree, apart from the people who think that philanthropists are selfish socialists - which doesn't make any degree of sense to me). At the same time, I also have slight difficulties with the notion that we, as a very affluent country, still rely on charities to fill crucial gaps and provide basic care and facilities for some people. The balance between what should be done by the charity sector and the state is obviously complicated, and another debate entirely, so I'd prefer to leave that issue aside and keep the focus off the personal recipient of the inheritance, and stick to the concept of inheritance itself.

To those who have said "None of your business"! I think we are all allowed to have abstract discussions about financial transactions and the tax systems and financial conventions of the society we live in.

To those who say "Life's not fair". Um...quite. But as societies we have done quite a lot, over hundreds of years, to mitigate that and safeguard people from life's unfairness. I hope that's not what you would say to the victim of a robbery. Or someone who has been defrauded. Shrugging and saying "life's not fair" isn't really a solution to anybody's problems, I don't think.

Some people seem to disagree with inheritance tax at all. Maybe they disagree with income tax too. Perhaps they disagree with insurance. I don't know how far they want to push this, ultimately. They might not be satisfied until we live in some Mad Max style world - battling it out in the Thunderdome while the crowd chants "Life's Not Fair".

To those who have said that human beings are ultimately selfish and that human nature is intrinsically self interested. I don't think it is. I think that some human beings are selfish, and that they just presume that everyone else is too.

Juggling that "In a meritocracy who looks after the vulnerable and even the less able ? Seems a good thing to me that wider concepts of caring for one another including within families are also strongly at work in our society." I think this is a very good point. I think that dependents should be able to inherit - dependent children as well as adults who are financially dependent on their families, for reasons of vulnerability, should inherit from their parents' estate.

To those who said that tax avoidance is a far bigger issue - I totally agree. That's the No1 priority, in my view. I am just glad that conversation about the ethics of tax avoidance has now entered mainstream debate. A very small sign of progress.

On reflection, based on people's comments - I don't really have any problem with a modest tax free inheritance. But I think that the current threshold is probably too high. In 2011/2012, only 19 000 estates were taxed - under 3% of inheritances in the UK. I just think it's bizarre how much energy and attention goes into debating what the top income tax threshold should be - 45% or 50% - or whether 'high earners' should get a piffling amount of child benefit - and yet we barely question the ethics of passing on 300K absolutely tax free - and taxing inheritance above that at 40% when income tax is even higher.

In general I would say I was for a) lowering the income tax threshold, given that only 3% of estates are subject to it at all
b) more progressive taxation about the tax free band

An interesting idea might be for inheritance to be taxed at the same rate as the recipient pays income tax (averaged over the last X number of years). It is income, after all. Why a special 40% flat rate?

I'm sure I've missed lots of people's great points here, but this is already very long and I have to go for now.

OP posts:
FreedomOfTheTess · 04/06/2013 19:42

Having done a bit more reading, and the gist is, that people like my siblings and I shouldn't stand to inherit anything as we didn't earn it.

However, if his money went back into the "pot", then millions of people would "benefit" from it who sure as hell didn't do anything to earn it either.

It's my dad's money, he has already paid oodles of tax on it, and it's his to do what the f**k he likes with. Simple really.

And for the record, my brother and I both work for our dad's business (our sister doesn't), so we have both contributed to the success and earnings of the business.

Binkybix · 04/06/2013 19:50

pucker I love the fact that you list garden ornaments as something to be jealous of and covet. It really made me smile!!

CloudsAndTrees · 04/06/2013 20:09

the urge to pass everything on to your children clearly isn't overriding - given that most people don't actually inherit very much. Are you really saying that people who don't leave a wod of assets behind when they die don't love their children as much as parents who have?

This is missing the point. If people don't have anything to leave, then it's a non issue. An inheritance isn't something people are entitled to that their parents are duty bound to provide. It's only an issue if there is something to leave. And most people that have something to leave, do want to leave it to their children, or younger generations within the family.

You say most people don't inherit much, which may be true. But the point is the same whether an inheritance consists of £500,000 or 500 matchsticks. Whatever we have to leave, we generally want to leave it to our children. I would have thought that actually, most people do inherit something, whether it be a piece of jewellery, a house, or £50 from a post office account.

I also have slight difficulties with the notion that we, as a very affluent country, still rely on charities to fill crucial gaps and provide basic care and facilities for some people.

If you took away inherited wealth, you would end up with more people relying on charity or the state, not less. I believe that 100% and off the top of my head i can think of easily 7-8 people that would be legitimately reliant on the state if it weren't for the wealth of other members of their family.

I don't see how taking away a family's means of being self reliant can ever be a good thing. There is a notion that all vulnerable/disabled/people with ill health or mental health are all poor. They are not, it's just that the ones who can afford to live without charity or the state don't get discussed, because there isn't much debate to be had about people being self sufficient and getting on with their own lives.

TinBox · 04/06/2013 20:17

How's that missing the point? Some people scrimp and save their whole lives so that they can pass a nest egg on to their children or grandchildren when they die. Bequeathing family members an inheritance is obviously very important to them. Other people decide to spaff all their savings away on holidays in retirement. Leaving money to the rest of the family obviously wasn't a high priority for them. People do plan their inheritances and end of life finances. I don't think it's fair to say that the concept is held in the same esteem by everybody - but some posters think it is absolutely universal, when there's plenty of evidence otherwise.

PasswordProtected · 04/06/2013 20:30

So by extension, HDTU, no children should be brought up by their biological parents, to "break" the inheritance of genes?

Mindyourownbusiness · 04/06/2013 20:31

What annoys me is these people who see their parents assets/money as rightfully theirs whilst their parents are still alive and kicking.

The words 'my inheritance' actually make me feel quite stabby. My sister lately used this term about our parents house (asset rich, money poor) when we were discussing the best plan for very elderly mums future. She absolutely didn't want 'plan A' because it would greatly erode the equity in the property. But she absolutely did agree with 'plan B' because it would not.

I refused to even consider this as a factor in my decision (luckily l am POA) and it was based purely on what was best for mum as it is mums money/asset. Dsis was outraged and is very bitter about it (l obviously chose plan A)

Well sorry Dsis and people of similar mindset - it is not 'your' inheritance or 'your' anything whilst the person is still drawing breath. Just as when a parent remarries and decides to spend it on their new life/new spouse where their DCs would otherwise have got it had both parents stayed together or one hadn't passed away - this causes similar unjustifiable outrage.

God bless the child who has his own l say - anyone elses that falls into your hands should be seen as a bonus.

CloudsAndTrees · 04/06/2013 20:48

TinBox, I think it's missing the point, because the way I see it is that people want to do what they choose with their own money. As you said, some will scrimp and save it because they want to pass it on, others will spend it on luxuries just because they want to.

The point is that they have the choice, because it belongs to them.

I probably didn't put it across well on my last post!

What matters isn't what someone chooses to spend their own money on, it's that they have that option to leave it for their children if they want to. Freedom of choice is the most important factor, and I think it's pretty universal that people want that.

BigBoobiedBertha · 04/06/2013 21:29

I take issue with only allowing dependents to inherit. How do you decide that? I have a son with Aspergers. On the face of it he looks capable but I strongly expect that he won't ever leave home. Now, he is not registered disabled but he relies heavily on his family and I can't imagine kicking him out on the street as a adult, leaving him to fend for himself. My money is there to protect him, to make sure he has a roof over his head. I wouldn't think he would ever be described as dependent by any government body but nevertheless he is.

What about people who have to be carers for their ageing and infirm parents? Are you going to kick them out of their parent's home when that parent dies? They may not technically be dependent but if they have dedicated their life to caring for a parent and not built a life and career of their own how is that fair to chuck them out? And if you create an exception for them, what about the people who may not live in their parent's houses but still take a large part of the burden of their care, perhaps to the detriment of their own finances? How do you prove all this? What cumbersome system do you have to put in place and who gets to decide who is worthy and who isn't?

To me you would be creating a dangerous and divisive system that would see vulnerable people badly treated. It isn't much better than the bedroom tax - forcing people to move to allow the state to get their hands on their homes and assets.

Better to leave the system as it is. Change the taxes if you must but don't create some hierarchy of exceptions which costs a packet but doesn't actually go anywhere near creating a meritocracy.

Pigsmummy · 04/06/2013 21:43

OP I don't disagree with income tax, inheritance tax is a second/third tax, as earnings taxed at source and potentially taken again off savings/capitals gains tax so actually the country is making plenty out of my money and I want to leave some for my children.

I am struggling to see why you, or anyone else has an issue with the concept of, whilst alive you work really hard, pay taxes and want to leave something for your children. It's not rocket science.

OP Are you working/have worked (if retired) and pay into the tax system?

claig · 04/06/2013 22:09

Good post, PigsMummy, and also would the OP not want to leave any of her own wealth to her children and grandchildren?

Would she prefer to give her lifetime's accumulated wealth to the government?

If so, I think she is in the minority.

claig · 04/06/2013 22:11

Does the OP love the government more than her children?

Does she want her wealth to be used to pay for MPs' expenses and the currently talked about pay increase for MPs rather than go to her children?

HeadsDownThumbsUp · 04/06/2013 22:25

Bertha - I said can see that it would be difficult to work out who is 'dependent' and who is not. In principle, it would be nice to make special provisions for dependent people. On balance though, I don't think most people who inherit money need that provision to get by, so the argument that inheritance saves the welfare state money looks thin to me.

Pigsmum - Again, the argument that inheritance tax is 'double taxation' is weak - all money is taxed again and again as it moves around. I pay council tax out of my (already taxed) income, vat on the goods I pay with my already taxed savings, from my already taxed income. I don't see what makes inheritance tax so exceptional. I don't want to make this too personal, but yes I work and pay taxes - why would you assume otherwise.

Claig - Again, I don't want to make this too personal? Do you think that Bill Gates doesn't love his children because he's giving 95% of his wealth away? As I said earlier in the thread, there are many different ways in which you could approach the issue of inheritance and the inequality embedded by inherited wealth - taxation is only one approach. Personally, I want to see my money put to good use while I am alive, rather than accumulated and passed on after my death.

OP posts:
claig · 04/06/2013 22:30

We, the people, have very little say in where our tax money is spent by any government. Sometimes they choose to give it out as tax subsidies to rich landowners to erect windmills on their land, or they spend it on the Millenium Dome or in aid to countries that have more billionaires than we do.

If inheritance was abolished, then the small sums that hardworking people may have been able to pass down to their children and grandchildren would vanish.

There are poor people who cannot afford to pay the bedroom tax and may be forced out of homes that they have lived in for decades. Do you really think that by giving your accumulated wealth to the government that they would stop policies like that and forego their own pay increases?

Don't you think it is right that parents in their wills are allowed to give some money to their families who may not be able to afford the cost of the bedroom tax?

claig · 04/06/2013 22:36

'Do you think that Bill Gates doesn't love his children because he's giving 95% of his wealth away?'

5% of Bill Gate's wealth is more than what thousands of people facing bedroom tax eviction will earn in their lifetime's combined. So that is irrelevant. Gates is providing more than enough for his children with that 5%, but there are millions of working class and middle class people in this country who want to leave money to their children to provide for their future and to help them pay their mortes or their spiralling, disgusting university education fees or to help them have enough money to be able to pay the bedroom tax so that they don't have to leave homes that they have lived in for decades.

The socialist will never penalise the Queen Mother or Bill Gates or Tony Blair in what they can leave in inheritance because they will hire lawyers and accountants who know how to maximise what they can leave, but the socialist wants to penalise ordinary working people from handing something down to their families.

claig · 04/06/2013 22:38

pay their mortgages (not mortes)

HeadsDownThumbsUp · 04/06/2013 22:41

"5% of Bill Gate's wealth is more than what thousands of people facing bedroom tax eviction will earn in their lifetime's combined. So that is irrelevant."

No, it's not irrelevant according to you Claig, because you've spent much of this thread arguing that passing down wealth to our descendants is an absolute biological imperative, and that to do otherwise is unnatural and will destroy society and the family.

And it's no irrelevant because, as you point out, most people have very, very little, earn very little and inherit very little. The way in which tremendous power and privilege is handed down - huge chunks of it tax free, and the rest taxed at just 40% - is not in the interests of ordinary people. It is not "the little people" who stand to benefit from hereditary wealth.

OP posts: