Skint - part 2

[Sleepingbunnies]

AIBU to have switched it off as it gave me such rage to hear that a 21 yr old who has never worked a day in her life had 5 kids, free rent and £1600 on top of her free rent! Knew I shouldn't have started watching it....

I agree that young girls don't dream of having five kids at the age of 21 when they are 7. They might want to be a vet or a nurse or something but I think too much emphasis is being placed on 'their dreams being taken away'.

The reality is being a vet or a nurse is bloody hard work and at 16, girls like this see having large families and being paid more to do so than they'd get to work is just the easy option.

I don't think it's about dreams being shattered, it's about people who think the world owes them a living and people who want the highest reward for the least effort.

Fat, stupid, boring, extremely lazy and covered in sick/ elbow deep in shitty nappies! I'm sure you're equally pleasant and judgemental.
As for shy and quiet and lacking in confidence. That's crap. It can be the case, but equally, loud and over compensatory can be the case.
Oh, and there is also the case of judicious editing to titilate the likes of judgemental Daily Fail readers.

I agree sugarmouse, some DON'T want to be helped but unless it's offered we don't know. We have parents barely out of their teens begging for support and people n their 40's who don't want anything and vice versa.
Until it's offered though you don't know...and who is to say that the "can't be bothered to change" folk will always feel that way. It could simply be that "now" is not the right time. The Mum with five young children might have no emotional resources left to do anything about her situation at the moment but once th children are in school might feel very different.

Yes you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. It's a hell of a good choice to have that water there though when it DOES need to be accessed.

Just handing £1600 a month to a family and not offering them the opportunity to make changes is madness. There needs to be a community who will help this Mum make positive changes as and when she needs it,

So sugarmouse, what can YOU offer for those who WANT to make changes? What COULD you offer to show them there is another way?

That's what we ought to be doing...not judging them on an Internet forum and then going back to our cosy loves.

Jakebullet- I have nothing but admiration for people like you who work to try to help these families.
I think it's a complex issue though, because the moment you mention things like supported living for teenage mums, there's a backlash from people crying 'it's a return to the workhouse. These girls need their own flat/ house to retain some dignity'
I think supported living for young mums (and dads) would be an excellent idea for 2 reasons. Mainly because as jakebullet says, it's not all about throwing money at these people to sort them out. It's about providing role models, enotional support and so on. A young pregnant girl who hasn't had that in her own home is far better off being in a supported environment, perhaps with some communal meals, activities, teaching Etc than stuck in her own flat with plenty of material gadgets but no emotional support. Second reason: in the long term it's more cost effective. I would rather money was spent on more support workers but then saved by not paying out ludicrous sums like £1600 a month PLUS rent and council tax paid. Ridiculous.
And of course we need to remember personal responsibility. Not everyone from an unsupported background gets pregnant at a young age or gets a girl pregnant .

Ps- the thing is , it would take a big cultural shift

I think it's entirely reasonable to say to a young pregnant girl- we can offer you a room in a shared house, it will be communal supported living, there are a lot who would feel it was unfair and that they are entitled to their own home

jake puts it so well! I grew up in an area like this and almost lost my brother to crime and drugs.

Jamelia's story broke my heart - where is the support for her? Why is a minor allowed to live in a crack den with no help? I'd happily see tax funds used to support her to get on her feet and get her daughter back.

The girl with 5 kids ... less sympathy there, sorry - no child should go hungry and the state needs to have a way of making sure children don't suffer from their parents' lack of planning/job/money, but at the same time it enrages me that people are being paid £1600 on top of free rent - who is ever going to work if that lifestyle is available for free?

They spent money on tattoos/wedding dresses etc when they had just been crying because they couldn't feed their kids - they need to be taught how to budget and to save some of that £1600 so that they have a cushion if their benefits get stopped again.

I don't yet have a child partly because I don't feel I could support one/afford childcare/mat leave. We need to educate young people about their responsibilities as parents before they start having 5 kids they can't support.

The 21 year old's mother had made an appointment to take her to the gp and get a coil and had wanted her to go to a different school and hairdressing college and she would support her through it.

Th girl just smirked as if to say, I got what I wanted which was NOT to improve her chances through education and learning a skill but by having babies instead.

IMO that was a clear choice made by her when alternatives were available. Very sad.

I always go back to the 7year old child. Ask a 7 year old child what they want to do when they grow up and I can almost guarantee that not ONE will say "I want lots and lots of children". All 7 year olds have some notion to do "something" even if it's "I want to be a pop star". When do they lose that ambition and see no other way than early parenthood.

By the way I am not for one moment saying all young parents are n the wrong. I have seen very mature 16 year olds who have had a baby but who then make plans for their future. I worry more when by 20 they have had another two children and have no future plans.

The saddest case I can remember was visiting a 21 year old on her 21st birthday who said sadly "I'm 21 and I've got four kids" with eyes brimming. She wanted to be a hairdresser and it took considerable work for her to see that her life was NOT over and that she COULD still be a hairdresser if she wanted and that we could help her realise that ambition. That she could do things still.

Five children at 21 is a disaster but the life of this Mum is not over, she just needs to reach a point where she realises there is a better way for her and her family. Helping those parents reach that point is another issue.

Interestingly my cousin who is a self made millionaire, very successful business, worked hard all his life etc says that "no wonder they have big televisions, they have no other life" . He doesn't begrudge the people on benefits with huge TVs etc, he says it is sad they have had no opportunity to see a different life is available to them. And lets not forget they buy them from BrightHouse with massive interest.

Actually I should not say "five children at 21 is a disaster", those children are not "disasters", they are potential valued members of society if we can show them there is hope out there.

Just handing £1600 a month to a family and not offering them the opportunity to make changes is madness.

Totally agree with this one. All too often we hear people moaning that benefits isn't enough then it's too much. But the reality is that money alone doesn't help families in need.

There has to be a system which helps and at the same time discourages the lifestyle that the 21year old leads. Personally I'd like to see child element of benefits frozen at the time you enter the system. So you have two kids when you go on income support/JSA, fine. You get paid for two kids. But pop out a third, fourth or fifth and you still get paid for two kids.

None of these parents are stupid. They'd have used condoms and the pill if they knew an additional child meant no more money. Or they like the rest of us would have to make do with the money we have. I don't get a payrise when having another child.

But alongside the financial it is crucial we give more support to kids like Jamelia who desperately needs a role model, someone in her life who can help her, cajole her and motivate her into doing something positive in her life. Underneath that gobby exterior, i saw a poor child who didn't know any better.

I agree with niceguy the long term solution to situations like this has to be removing the incentive for them to continue having more children.

There is no way this girl would have had 5 children if her income had not increased in direct proportion to the number of children she had.

This myth that people would stop having babies if they were not given payments is, in many cases, just that, a myth. Many of these women come from families where there has been minimal care. They produce children in an attempt to have 'something to love' and to have unconditional love in return. Something not provided for them.

Oh, and if we're talking about stopping benefits, yes I know it's boring, but those on disability allowances, what about them? Disabled people not allowed to have children?

niceguy You do get a payrise when you have another child. Child benefit.

I agree with everything jake has said.
I also felt desperately sad watching this.
The girl trying to make herself look nice for court :(

but as a society we in some parts broken the link between a child being something you are responsible for and provide for and replaced it with 'something to love'.

DP works in a school where 10% of the children either have a social worker or are at risk of neglect (come to school unwashed and unfed). some of which are currently being taken into care. which does not happen lightly.

10% of children's parents cannot practically care for them in terms of food and back personal care.

we need to get the idea of someone wanting 'something to love' in proportion with children being hungry and dirty in a wealthy part of the UK where unemployment is very low.

back personal care = basic personal care

Neglect happens in middle and upper class families too faster!

I don't doubt it - but if parents have to work, they have to get up in the morning which helps the whole family

Please remember that some of us are in situations whereby we are unable to work. We still get up in the mornings.

Didn't see it so can t comment too much. However, the fact that the 21 yr old with 5 children is getting £1600 in benfits and coucil tax paid etc really annoys me and I think I would have to turn it off.

From what I've read it seems to me that she made that choice and was not forced into these circumstances, if her mum is offering to help her get a job and stop her having any more babies and she's not bothered.

What really gets me cross though is the fact that I would love to have a big family and would love to have 4 children (currently have one ds) but we cannot afford to so we don't! It is simply not fair that working people cannot afford big families if they want them yet these people are getting more than I earn and have as many children as they fancy because it is paid for. IMO it is completely the wrong way around. I feel so many, but not all the system is the problem. When people are paid more than they would ever get if they went and got a job why would they get one and as others have said especially if they have childcare to pay for 5 children.

dawndonna no one is talking about people who are unable to work, unless the reason they are unable is that they have chosen to have 5 children, which is a lifestyle choice, not a reason not to work.

cleo I second your opinion. I currenty have 2 DC but would love 4. We are saving to have 3, but Rhys all we'l ever be able to afford we get nothing. No tax credits etc. We do get child benefit. I work full time and it makes me sick that she is getting everything for free when I spend 11 hours a day working to be able to provide for the children I have and any future children I want.

I really do not blame those who disengage under capitalism.
I think Englishgirl wrote a great post above.

When I was at school hardly any kids in my class had white-collar working parents. But most of them lived in nice (if modest) houses, had 3 meals a day, alright clothes, maybe a caravan holiday once a year, and the family had pride. Their dads worked, were home for tea by 5.30 or 6 at the latest, and their work kept the family (with maybe the odd shift of shop work or bar work by the mothers, sometimes). Boys who mucked around at school might have been (unspokenly) written off academically, but no one really worried about them because there were huge swathes of functional society that didn't give a shit about school.
There was poverty too where people were out of work, but often the dads found jobs again. Some of the kids in my class were in and out of foster homes and children's homes. but these were the exception and we felt sorry for them. (sorry to be patronising)

Anyway I think we are in a world where it is harder and harder to make a life for yourself if you are not exceptional. An average house in London costs half a million. Surely you must be exceptional to afford that. I think it is exceptional nowadays to have a job where you can keep a family in a 3 bedroom house (single handedly), come home and eat at 5.30, not touch a stroke of work all weekend (maybe take the kids to football or do the garden or visit your aged mum and do hers), and I can't think how on god's earth you could do this without a degree.

It's just too hard and I don't blame those who give up.

I have been part of a very small trial where we give young mums vouchers, not cash. So we effectively budget for them. They get NO cash but have enough to feed, clothe & house themselves. After a lot of moaning some of them are starting to thrive - because one of the vouchers is for education with childcare & if you complete this you get another voucher for clothes. The local college has agreed to accept the girls on courses and they are doing hairdressing, mechanics and public services. It has been tough going as the girls know their rights and expected to be able to spend their benefits on what they wanted. We explained that it wasn't their money, but the tax payers, so they would only have the right to spend as they pleased once they were 'earning' the cash.
Not in the UK I hasten to add, but I think it could work here. Has stopped booze and drugs and has, more importantly, raised self esteem and aspirations. Early days yet, but I will keep you posted !!

Interesting question of what difference causes some people to aspire to more than their parents, and others to feel trapped by their parents lifestyle.

I know someone who's parents/grandparents never worked. Middle kid of 3. Other siblings very much followed the parents lifestyle and are now non-working parents of largish families themselves while the middle kid wanted so much more for herself and frankly expresses disgust at her siblings / parents lifestyle. She has worked from 16 to get enough money together to have her kids provided for and is now retraining as a midwife.

How can we give the spark of ambition to those that lost it? Or how can we prevent them losing it in the first place?