To (privately) disapprove of my friend having a cleaner

[Unami]

Ok. This may be long, but I will do my best to explain where I am coming from. My friend has a cleaner and I privately disapprove. I would never make an issue of it to her, or even bring it up. It was brought up by another friend when we were at her place for drinks. She was a bit about it, and it led to a big discussion, but I didn't say anything committal. I do recognise that she can hire a cleaner if she likes. If she likes she can hire a troupe of jugglers and have them juggle in her kitchen all day, if she likes. It's none of my business, I get that.

But I still privately disapprove. AIBU?

Her cleaner comes to her two bedroom flat twice a week and gives it a full clean, and that apparently includes hoovering all carpets and upholdstry, dusting all surfaces, polishing wood, sweeping and cleaning wooden floor in hall and kitchen, emptying waste bins in the house and taking kitchen bins round the back, cleaning mirrors, cleaning the inside of windows, full clean of the kitchen including inside the fridge, full clean of bathroom. Once a month she also gets the oven cleaned, extractor fan cleaned and polished (!?), cupboards dusted inside and out. She says she pays £45 a week for this.

It's just her in the flat. She doesn't have kids and doesn't live with her bf.

Here's my perspective. People say that having a cleaner is just like hiring any other service provider. But it's not. Domestic cleaners clean intimate, private parts of our houses, and clean up our bodily mess, and it's low paid, low status work. Yes, people hire gardeners and window cleaners, but these are roles which require specialist equipment and insurance, and they only work on the outside and periphery of your home. Yes, I recognise that cleaners are employed in offices I use, cafes I eat in and so on, but it's not really the same either. Most commerical cleaners are employed as staff and so get holiday pay, sick pay, NI etc. Agency workers don't have it so good, and I disagree with the terms of their employment too. But domestic cleaners are often paid cash in hand because employers think they are doing them a favour. But they have no holiday, sick pay - what happens if they have an accident in the house they are cleaning in. I know there are some well organised small cleaning companies, but I think they are the exception.

But most of all, I just feel like my friend is just being lazy or thinks she's too good to pick up after herself. If you are elderly or disabled or immobile, then I see nothing wrong with getting the help that you need. Likewise, if you have a busy family, and don't want to be stuck being the person who picks up after everyone else - get the help you need and show the family how much your time costs. But if you have a quiet life and are fit and healthy, I don't see why you think it's ok to have someone over to clean your toilet. I also think that people who say they are so impossibly busy with work that they can't lift a duster once a week really ought to think about cutting back their ft hours, and give others access to the surplus of work they have.

I'm not going to have a go at my friend. But I just don't think it's right.

You keep implying it would be ok for your friend to have a cleaner if she was busier, worked longer, had children, was immobile. What you seem to be missing is her reasons are ABSOLUTELY NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS.

You really are not a good friend.

I don't really see anything wrong with people having a private cleaner if they need one - but you do with someone who just doesn't want to clean themselves and can afford to pay someone else to do it? It's morally more acceptable to spend that money on something else that will give you less pleasure than freeing up your time by not having to clean?

You might have problems with a cleaner having access to your private intimate areas, but as I said, there are far more intimate jobs (brazillian waxers for a start).

If it is just a job that people 'choose' to do and has nothing to do with social and economical circumstances as if somehow it is a job that is aspirational and comes up frequently as a choice favoured by teenagers when discussing work options with a Careers Adviser, would those who employee cleaners be happy for their DC to be one? All the people I know who are privileged enough to have a cleaner, would categorically be not pleased for their DC to do this work.

It makes no sense economically for either the individual or the national economy, for someone who can earn £50 to forgo earning £50 in order to clean their flat, when there is someone willing and able to clean the flat for £10.

If the higher earner gives up the £50 and cleans their own flat, the economy loses out on the £50. It is £50 that the high earner cannot spend in shops or on services. Nor will they be paying tax on the £50. You also have to count the £10 that the cleaner has lost from not being employed to clean the flat.

There is a moral argument that everyone should emply a cleaner if they can possibly afford to.

Chased, at no point did I say that cleaning is demeaning. I said it is low paid, low status work, which it is - by the norms of our culture, and payscales. We might not all like the fact that this is the case, but that's how it is just now.

Like I said, for me, getting my lawnmowed or windows cleaned would be a very different service. I don't have any of that equipment, don't have a lawnmower/shears/ladder to clean my 3rd storey windows. People who do that kind of work have invested in that kind of equipment, which I'm effectively hiring along with their services.

I said nothing about benefit fraud nor would I presume anything of someone who gets paid in cash. I lot of people do pay cleaners in cash though, and the posters here are obviously more conscientious about holiday pay etc with their cleaners than the people I know in rl

I have had cleaners . They have all been male . I don't press gang random people off the street , in fact in order to get one of them , I had to be approved , as there is a waiting list for his work. I worked out what he earned once , without counting his very popular ironing service . £40k a year , plus the proceeds from his ironing . That's hardly low waged or exploitative .

Some people genuinely enjoy cleaning and get job satisfaction out of it , like any other job well done . Like my mum , who is also highly sought after , does the hours to suit her , and loves her work .

YABU. In fact your self righteous post has made me quite angry. Who cares what your friend spends her money on? We had a cleaner before kids and it meant we had our weekends to ourselves without rowing about who was going to clean what. Back in your box..

goldenbear - if I'm completely honest, I'd be unhappy with my DCs being in any low paid work as a long term career (rather than for a year or so while funding study or trying to get something better paid) - and cleaning at £11 an hour is better paid than most jobs you think of as 'low paid'. Cleaning definately pays much hirer than bar work where I live.

I think you should dump this bitch out of her life

I mean, she believes she's entitled to spend her own time and money as she sees fit.

She's too grand to do her own cleaning. I expect she pays someone to service her car, and someone to drive the bus she gets to work, bloody princess.

And finally, she pays a proper wage to someone doing a perfectly respectable job.. Capitalist cow

LTB

I also had a cleaner when I lived alone and had no kids . So what ? Preferring to spend my off duty time competing with my horses rather than donning a pair of marigolds is not a crime .

Cor, wish I could afford a cleaner! Currently a sahm, but I hate housework and I'm the queen of procrastination. If she prefers to hire a cleaner, it's not really any of your business, is it? To each their own and all that...

Cleaners certainly don't have job security, or holiday or sickness pay. It's also worth remembering too that although the hourly rate may seem better than a lot of jobs, there are only so many hours a cleaner can work in a day.

Can't be arsed reading all that and I still know YABU. :o

YABU and also this is the funniest AIBU I have ever seen.

Who cares - I love having someone clean my toilet, I can afford it and would prefer to have my spare time to myself and love coming home to a clean house. The cleaner does not pick up after me she cleans. I also have an ironing lady

It should not be cash in hand, they are self employed in the same way builders often are, should complete tax returns and often get 'holiday' pay which many self employed people don't.

My SIL does massages for a living, she files all the correct returns, pays NI/tax but does not get holiday or sick pay of course.

My cleaner is paid £10 ph (equiv of £19k PA if full time) but even £7ph (over £13k) is more than many staff who work in pre-schools etc so I don't actually think it is a bad deal.

Regarding distributing better paid work more evenly - I think this is even more ridiculous than the cleaner issue. Some people are highly qualified and get paid lots and some people aren't - nothing wrong with that, thats life I guess.

OP - I do'nt pay my cleaners holiday pay, but then they are self employed (I did just have one, but she doesn't drive and had more demand for work than she could manage to get round walking, she and another local cleaner who does drive have paired up, so now they come as a team to my house for 1.5 hours and I pay for 3 hours).

they are self employed, so I pay them (not in cash, they gave me that as an option but I'm not organised enough to have the right cash every week - I do online transfers monthly), they factor in their costs their holiday and sick pay, like my hairdresser and my beautician.

toiletbrush you are right re the hours/pay but this goes for a lot of jobs such as childminders, pre-school staff etc, many are term time only and get minimal holiday/sick pay. Most self-employed people get nothing even if they are highly paid.

My cleaner works all day every day at various jobs, some all day at one place so not that bad really.

I don't understand how anybody could disapprove of a friend having a cleaner.
OP you sound very as you haven't come up with any genuine reason as to why any could disapprove. Your friend is employing somebody which could be helping them to keep a roof over their head.

I also don't get holiday pay. Or sick pay. I often work very unsociable hours. And long hours. I'm self employed.

Pre-dc, I did pay by the hour work when I needed flexibility.
I chose not to work as a cleaner because I am ineffective at it and do a not-great job, too slowly. I am also a shit waitress as I spill things.

I chose to work as a pub cook and dog walker instead. Even though they paid less and the working environment was not as comfortable or safe because I am good at walking dogs and cooking.
I can't see the shame or stigma in it.
Some people are ineffectual cleaners.
Some people are ace at it.

OP, you mention the fact that your friend works without a contract or security. Would you also disapprove of anyone who used the services of a curtain-maker, violin teacher, freelance writer?

Don't we all pay for at least some things to be done, that we could theoretically do ourselves? The car wash, window-cleaner, hairdresser, painter/decorator, getting the milk/paper delivered, or eating the carrots we didn't grow ourselves?

I just feel like my friend is just being lazy or thinks she's too good to pick up after herself.

Where's your evidence? These assumptions are coming from you, not from your friend.

It's not lazy to pay someone for a job, it's a sensible way to buy yourself some time. And it doesn't mean she thinks she's "too good" to clean any more than you're "too good" for any of the other things you pay someone else for.

YABU. I'm sure the cleaner would much prefer to clean a two bedroom flat with a single occupant and NO CHILDREN then my tip of a house with three children.

You say that you think your friend should work fewer hours and earn less so there would be more jobs to go round yet you are contradicting yourself because your friend is provding employment.

YABU and a bit weird tbh.

Yes I have a cleaner. No I am not saying YABU because I feel guilty about it. I genuinely haven't got a clue what I am expected to feel guilty about.

We all benefit from a clean house
We all benefit from my stress levels being lower
Cleaner benefits from a regular wage
She comes through a local agency so we are also supporting a local business.

I also outsource my ironing to another local business, which I'm assuming I should also be feeling guilty about?

She's using her money to employ someone else to do the jobs she doesn't want to spend her time doing. pretty much like most jobs out there, someone is paying us to do something cos they can't or won't. That's market economy for you. I do think, as has been said that we need to have a good hard think to ourselves as to where our values lie in what is a valued job and what is not. why do some people look down on cleaners, bin people, toilet cleaners etc and why if these jobs exist do we judge people who pay them for their services when we pay a million other types of jobs / people for theirs. I don't want to decorate my house, plumb my sink, wire my lights, clean my car, do my shopping... I pay for these services and more... no different op. Life is too short to spend time doing things you would rather not, if you can pay, and choose to, then that is a good life, I do my cleaning only because I am very precious about my privacy and would feel uncomfortable having someone in my house regularly. I am not however precious about someone shopping and bringing it to my front door. As I say life is too short to judge what others choose to spend their money on and what is important to them. Or to judge what is a valued job and what's not which is essentially what you have done here I'm afraid. what are your luxuries in life? not a cleaner but ... a haircut? manicure? massage? meal ot? take away|? some other 'service' that someone is providing for you cos you CBA and are paying... no difference really.

Seriously, I think you should just chill out. Does it really matter? Stop worrying about it. I'm sure some people would much rather clean than be on the dole. Good on them.

Hey OP,
We live in a boarding school where I work very long hours 13 days out of 14, so the last thing I ever want to do is clean my house when I get off duty after 10pm at the earliest.
I spoke to the lady who cleaned my office who happens to be the supervisor and asked if she knew anyone looking for a few extra hours work and if that was allowed. She actually offered to do it herself. She charges me £11 an hour (less than her usual charge of £14) as she is already on site and fits it in at the end of her other shifts. She actually gets pleasure from leaving places "Spick and span" as she puts it, and says that she earns far more now than she used to when she was the manager of a bank. So the idea people who are cleaners are trapped slaves is really rather outdated. She has been on an Icelandic cruise with her husband so far this year, and she has already booked off her summer hols on our calendar so she is a long way from the breadline. Everyone is happy with the arrangement- especially my husband as he actually gets properly ironed shirts every week!
Y def seem to be VU about your friend, but perhaps that is down to your perception of the employer/ employee relationship.