FIL lost it with the kids.. Perspective needed

[mousemole]

My head's in a muddle with this one and I'm bloomin angry.
Yesterday we were at the in laws for a family get together. Nice day but FIL gets stressed by our boys aged 7,5 and 2 going within 5 metres a glass/ tea cup/ ornament. He's quite a shouty man and has very limited patience. Anyway, we were about to leave when the two youngest started bickering over a toy. I got up to go and pack our stuff up, left husband sat with the boys, FIL and other family members. I came back into the room 2 minutes later to find FIL dragging the youngest 2 boys by their wrists across the room. They were hysterical and clearly in pain. Apparently he had flipped at their bickering and told them to get out the room. He is a big, strong 6ft 4 man, they are 2 and 4. I shouted 'what the hell is going on ?' at FIL and DH ( who did nothing but that's another story), grabbed the boys and went to the car with them where it took 5 mins to calm them down from their hysteria.
I agree it's their house and their rules but I am livid that he manhandled the kids. AIBU ?

[freddiemisagreatshag]

I have been told, repeatedly, on this thread that what I would have done to my kids is abuse. Removing them by the wrist from the situation. I've done it plenty of times.

FWIW, I'm sorry if my seeing it differently has upset the OP. I've been upset by the accusations of abuse and bullshit and all the rest that have been thrown at me.

I gave a different perspective. The OP was there. She has a massive problem with what happened. That's her right, and it's entirely up to her to choose not to see FIL again.

But. I'm 45 years old. I have raised 5 children. I have done what someone looking with a negative attitude towards me would have described in the way the OP did. That does not make me a child abuser.

Also, I've also been in situations where my then DH did nothing. Where the day went tits up and everyone ended up shouting. Where I put myself and my kids in a situation that should have been better off avoided and where I then transferred my own guilt at not handling the situation better and being more alert to triggers or where I should have said no in the first place and just not put myself in the situation - transferred that guilt to someone else (my mil in this case) when actually I had to take responsibility and I should have stepped up and left sooner or just not gone in the first place.

[StanleyLambchop]

I also believe it takes a village to raise a child and so am happy for grandparents and others to discipline (in the meaning of teaching a child right from wrong) when they feel necessary.

I love how this is trotted out on MN. Although if the OP was moaning because GP's would not babysit for them, she would be told that the DC's are the parents responsibility and noone else's. The bloody village only seem to turn up to hand out discipline, not help when it is actually needed!

[Goldmandra]

What people always forget is that we only ever have the OP's description of what happened and so I'm picturing a child being led out of the room and them pulling against the adult whereas a lot of people here obviously picture a child being dragged quite violently.

The OP's description

FIL dragging the youngest 2 boys by their wrists across the room. They were hysterical and clearly in pain.

The Your picture and the Op's description simply do not match. The Op tells us that one of the boys complained later that his GF had hurt his arm.

There is no point in responding on a thread if you're going to respond to something different from the situation the OP describes.

It is always possible that an OP might exaggerate or even that the whole post is a fabrication. Everybody knows that. What's the point of deciding one bit isn't true then responding as if you are right.

The OP has asked for opinions about how she should handle the situation she has described, not the one you have described.

I also believe it takes a village to raise a child and so am happy for grandparents and others to discipline (in the meaning of teaching a child right from wrong) when they feel necessary.

Of course the grandparents have a role in teaching children right from wrong. However they do not have any more right than anyone else to use aggression, pain and fear to teach those lessons.

[DonDrapersAltrEgoBigglesDraper]

DH is mortified that he didn't step in and feels horrendous as he knows how bad the situation but yes he was frozen by fear and I suspect taken straight back to his childhood.

I've never liked him. He's a big bully who bullies his wife and children and doesn't like me because I stand up to him and always have.

...she [MIL] was in the kitchen. She is lovely but scared of him too.

Interestingly FIL has just been through a lengthy tribunal where a former colleague at a charity he volunteers at accused him of bullying and intimidation.

As for the 'dragging', I really mean ''dragging'. I don't mean a firm grab and march along that I'm sure we have all done. His face was puce with rage and he dragged them forcefully . 2 year old was terrified.

I'm not sure if I'm reading a different thread from some people.

Unless you expect children to - 100% of the time - be seen and not heard, and unless this sort of behaviour was uncharacteristic of the FIL and he lost it in response to prolonged and intense irritation, I cannot understand why anyone is apologising for him, excusing him, normalising what he did, or putting the blame back on the OP, her DH or children.

But then again, I don't recognise this sort of behaviour or 'discipline' in the slightest.

[likeitorlumpit]

things that didnt irritate you because you are used to it can annoy others,i expect your fil was pissed off ,your dh sat there doing nothing and as you were not in the room decided to sort it out,cant believe your dh didnt do or say anything if they were playing up,you say they werent too bad but then you say you were not in the room when it happened.

[DonDrapersAltrEgoBigglesDraper]

i expect your fil was pissed off

You think...?

[Goldmandra]

things that didnt irritate you because you are used to it can annoy others,i expect your fil was pissed off ,your dh sat there doing nothing and as you were not in the room decided to sort it out,cant believe your dh didnt do or say anything if they were playing up,you say they werent too bad but then you say you were not in the room when it happened.

I have been irritated and frustrated by other people's children while their parents are either not present or not dealing with it on many, many occasions, as I am sure have most MNers. It is not an excuse to inflict pain and fear on the children, EVER!

[Oblomov]

I feel that the Op has over-reacted.

But that is becuase I have on many many occassions removed, carried, pulled, lugged both ds's out of situations/rooms/parks etc.

I have thrown them over my shoulder, lifted them and caried them horizontally, and yes i have grabbed mine by hands, and wrists and pulled them, dragged them, their feet draggin on the carpet. Even yanked them. And when pulling, I was actually carrying almost all of their weight. So actually itr is more like carrying than dragging.

Not once over the years have the children cried in pain. Not once have their hands or wrists hurt. There have been tears: " this isn't fair", " I always get the blame", " I hate you".

But they are crying becuase they are cross and they think that I am unfairly treating them, re the situation. Whereas i am cross and fed up with asking again and again and again for them to : not xxx/ stop bickerin etc etc.

Why do you think your children were actually crying Op? Are you sure it wasn't the shock rather than actual physical hurt of FIL?

[DonDrapersAltrEgoBigglesDraper]

^^ Bizarre that you think there is absolutely zero chance that your chidren are crying from pain.

Bizarre that you think being dragged bodily by the wrist wouldn't cause any pain.

I have a 4YO and a 2YO. What am I doing wrong that I've never had cause to drag them bodily by the wrist out of a room...? Or is all this ahead of me?

[Oblomov]

Haven't you ever been carried? Pulled? Dh had to yank me out, by the wrists when I got stuck. No pain.
Why are you assuming that there needs to be pain?

[Oblomov]

"zero chance that your chidren are crying from pain"
thats because, when I have asked them to leave themselves, and they have walked out of the room, on their own, and sat on the bottom of the stairs, for e,g., I still still get the tears and frustration of "this is so unfair". So yes, I do know that they are not crying from physical pain.

[Goldmandra]

Why do you think your children were actually crying Op? Are you sure it wasn't the shock rather than actual physical hurt of FIL?

If it were shock that would be no more acceptable. Behaviour management shouldn't be about shock, fear or pain.

Given that the OP was the only person on the thread who saw the force applied she is best place to judge whether her children were in pain.

Dragging/lifting/pulling children by hands and wrists carries the risk of injuring them. Lots of children are seen in A&E because of these injuries. It's better to hold them by the body to lift them if you need to remove them from a situation.

[WhiteBirdBlueSky]

Oblomov The fact that they cry for other reasons too, and would be crying if you didn't drag them about, doesn't mean you are not also hurting them.

[mercibucket]

I also doubt there was a great deal of pain, more likely shock, but there is a risk of damage and they should be lifted and carried if it is necessary to remove them from a situation or from each other. I've had to do that plenty of times with my hysterical children.

[BegoniaBampot]

yes we are only hearing one side. But, not all Gp's are lovely people. If this GF has a history of being an aggressive bully (op said something about her husband's fear of him) then he can fuck right off and your children come first and if he can't see this and control himself, don't let him see the children.

I wouldn't leave my children alone with my father and minimise any time spent as he is a bully and manipulator.

I sympathise OP but your children have to come first. we live far a way from family and trips home have to be for days at least and it can all be very difficult trying to deal with young children when you can't just up and leave and they can't act perfectly for days on end with people they are not as familiar with and out of their comfort zone.

[MissLurkalot]

I have three kids, soon to be four. I have removed my child from situations if they've been naughty or disruptive. I have taken their hands and troves them. If they resist, I would then swoop them out. I would not drag their entire body weight across a room only holding their wrist.
All of their weight on one wrist? Seriously? The damage it could cause to such immature muscles and liagaments.
I have been in the situation and have calmed it down without inflicting 'pain' on my child.
I would never ever expect an acquaintance, friend or family member physically drag any of my children like that.
My children have been disciplined by family and friends in my absence and on my presence.. I am fine with that and grateful for the support.
But NOT dragging them across the room hysterically.
You keep on harping on about only hearing the one side.. Well, welcome to Mumsnet, that's generally how it works. We're given the facts and we give our opinions..
But that some of you are actually criticising the OP's parenting is ridiculous and rather 'troll like' and like 'hitting someone when they're down'.
You can be constructive and offer an answer in how to deal with it... Maybe even offer to help diffuse the situation... That is your right, your opinion but to slate her patenting is below the belt!

[Myinboxisfull]

I haven't read all the posts but fil sounds like my father. As a result I've never allowed my parents to look after my dc, or left them alone with them. I made this decision before i had my first child after I saw how he behaved towards my niece aged 2.

No point in trying to discuss this with him because he will insist he's in the right and would never consider moderating his behaviour. My mother, who is generally a very nice person, believes that she should always 'stand by' her husband so will not disagree with him.

As a result the've spent very little time with my children.

[HappySeven]

Harping on, Missy? I don't think I harped on. And Goldmandra, the OP's language was emotive which made me less likely to believe what she said as fact. My DD will regularly claim someone has hurt her when no one's been near her so I don't take her child saying that granddad hurt him as fact either. When I said you only have one side I do realise that that is the thing with mumsnet and really we can never hear what the other person has to say which is why I take everything with a pinch of salt. The OP's reaction made me take what she said with a bucket of salt. If I misjudged I'm sorry but to be honest I don't think she came on here to hear another side.

[WhiteBirdBlueSky]

I wouldn't bother trying to change him OP.

[GreenEggsAndNichts]

Love the posts blaming the children. Even in light of the fact that a grown man (her DH) and a grown woman (his wife) are scared of the man, it's obviously just a case of the OP's children being wild and out of control.

I'm not saying the children weren't swinging from chandeliers, but with the information that the DH is scared of the man, it gives some more perspective on the situation. He's intimidating to adults; he must be terrifying to children.

I don't see any reason to return to their house, personally. Obviously it's full of crystal and Ming vases and shouldn't be inhabited by small children. It's one thing to expect three small boys to behave well in an enclosed space, but if you honestly love your breakables that much, you should have them packed away when they visit. Surely it's just common sense.

Good luck with the email, OP.

[likeitorlumpit]

dondraper you are as dramatic as the op , kids were brats got told off for once , had a squinn , its not gonna ruin their life , im sure they wil get over the trauma of grandad telling them off .if the dad had the backbone to tell them off then he wouldnt of had to step in.

[greenformica]

Are you sure they were being dragged and not led? If it was forceful, it is out of order but your DH should have really taken charge. Why didn't he? Did DH just let them continue bickering whilst he sat there? Are your children badly behaved normally? Do you let them get away with it?

[WhiteBirdBlueSky]

It's like some people are ignoring what the OP has posted. The OP has clearly stated why her DH didn't step in and has described the level of naughtiness and force involved. Unless she is delusional then she is NBU.

[JamieandtheMagicTorch]

Agree with your post MissLurkalot

[IneedAsockamnesty]

As I said earlier often the types of people who routinely use force or threat to modify behaviour tend to believe that parents who do things differently are doing nothing. Just because they are not doing what they themselves would.