FIL lost it with the kids.. Perspective needed

[mousemole]

My head's in a muddle with this one and I'm bloomin angry.
Yesterday we were at the in laws for a family get together. Nice day but FIL gets stressed by our boys aged 7,5 and 2 going within 5 metres a glass/ tea cup/ ornament. He's quite a shouty man and has very limited patience. Anyway, we were about to leave when the two youngest started bickering over a toy. I got up to go and pack our stuff up, left husband sat with the boys, FIL and other family members. I came back into the room 2 minutes later to find FIL dragging the youngest 2 boys by their wrists across the room. They were hysterical and clearly in pain. Apparently he had flipped at their bickering and told them to get out the room. He is a big, strong 6ft 4 man, they are 2 and 4. I shouted 'what the hell is going on ?' at FIL and DH ( who did nothing but that's another story), grabbed the boys and went to the car with them where it took 5 mins to calm them down from their hysteria.
I agree it's their house and their rules but I am livid that he manhandled the kids. AIBU ?

[GoblinGranny]

'I cannot abide children who don't know when to behave and I wouldn't have a friend who played namby pamby pandering parenting.'

Exactly so Freddie, and that's why the OP should put some distance between her FIL and her children until they've worked out the rules. I wouldn't have put either of my children into a visit that left them afraid. If the adults can't cope, then the children shouldn't be the victims.
My dad is a fantastic grandfather, but we set up very clear chains of command and rules that he understood. Including his right to say 'enough' or go out for a pint if they were more than he could manage. And that if he had a problem that enraged him, he roared for me or OH instead of trying to deal with it.

[HappySeven]

They are not screaming in pain (just temper) in my experience. I was regularly moved around by a teacher who would grab us by the wrist. It didn't hurt because I went with her. My own DD would claim someone hurt her when no one is near. Children are not stupid and will try and get sympathy when they can - it's human nature.

[pickledginger]

A 2 year old can be picked up!!! You can 'take control' by scooping them up and taking them out of the room.

[outtolunchagain]

I think I would just not visit , you don't need to make a family drama out of it, just suggest they come to you next time you are invited or politely decline an invitation due to a prior engagement .When thy do come to yours never leave him unaccompanied with the children and make sure that at the slightest sign of trouble the children are removed from his vicinity .

Let them draw their own conclusions , in my experience actions speak louder than words. My own mother let rip in the car at my eldest ( then6) because he didn't know the right turning for home. He has never been in a car with her unaccompanied again and neither have either of his siblings.

[GoblinGranny]

My sister once did something that would have caused my father to explode with rage, but she was with her DH instead. Who didn't.
She burst into tears, and it took him a while to understand why.
I think those of you that haven't lived with a parent whose responses terrified you have little idea how long it affects you, and at what point it resurfaces to knock the legs from under you.

pickledginger 'A grown man is scared of him because of his 'parenting'.'
sounds very scornful. Would you prefer for the OP to be married to a man who emulated his father's behaviour?

[joanofarchitrave]

I wouldn't email, or phone, or anything tbh. I would just ensure that any future visits are short. If they ask you for the whole day, either say no or that you have to be back at home by 4. An awful lot of grandparents aren't great at the role, it's not like they chose it.

[ImTooHecsyForYourParty]

Removing a misbehaving child is fine. You do it in a safe way. You don't pull them in a way that could seriously hurt them. If he had been holding their hands and removing them from the room, then fair enough. But the OP says he was dragging them by their wrists and that they were in pain. That's dragging. not holding not guiding not escorting. dragging. You cannot drag a child by their wrist. You run the risk of causing them physical harm. You cannot - or should not! - pull a person (and therefore their entire body weight) by a wrist. That's how things get bloody damaged! dislocated wrist, pulled elbow, etc.

I would simply stay away. I wouldn't even bother emailing him. If he can drag children the length of a room by their wrists and not care that they were crying out in pain or that he could cause them a physical injury by doing so, frankly he's not likely to give a shit about anything you say or think about it.

[freddiemisagreatshag]

It's all about perspective isn't it? Someone would see me with my child by the wrist and call it "dragging" I'd call it "firmly removing" - words are everything.

FWIW I think the OP doesn't like her FIL, doesn't want to have to see him, and this has given her the excuse she needs.

Which is fine and her choice, but she's chosen deliberately inflammatory language and her OP could have been worded in a different way to make much less of it.

[MayTheOddsBeEverInYourFavour]

Even if you think dragging a child along hard by it's wrists is ok (which I absolutely don't) it wasn't your fil's place to step in, especially as you were just about to leave

It would be a dealbraker for me

If you do have contact with him in future has your husband said anything about how he will manage if a similar situation happens in the future? Being scared if his father is not a good enough reason to not protect his children

[flippinada]

Ignore the minimising and victim blaming posts. He sounds dreadful.

I wouldn't bother emailing either as I can more or less guarantee it will inflame things and he won't listen.

I too am wondering about where MIL was in all this. Apologies if it's been explained and I missed it.

[SouthBySouthWest]

Have you decided whether you are going to email them, and if so, what approach you are going to take?

[Alibabaandthe40nappies]

OP - why did you go out of the room when they had started bickering without dealing with it?

I just think you and your DH have been lax with the parenting here - and FWIW, my 2 are exactly the same age as yours. If they start bickering when we are anywhere but at home either DH or I are on it straight away. Not one of us leaving the room and the other sitting on our arses doing nothing about it.

[pickledginger]

Goblingranny, not at all. I meant that if a grown man is still scared of him because of his behaviour as a parent over the years then what chance do two small children stand.

[MayTheOddsBeEverInYourFavour]

Even if the op and her DH were lax in their parenting, and I don't think they were at all. Why does that mean fil was ok to shout at and hurt two small children?

There are some genuinely lax parents out there, we've all met them does that mean we can just grab their kids and drag them around whenever we want?

[LimitedEditionLady]

I agree i wouldnt take them,id say come to ours.and id be livid with manhandling.dont believe it sets the right life examples.if anything he will lose their respect.you dont get resoect through fear.

[Mumsyblouse]

But-perhaps I have a different relationship with my family, but my family see us warts and all. We don't put on a show of perfect behaviour and then hastily leave. We could do that, we could go for two hours, all be the perfect children and grandchildren and then hurridly leave, but how awful, no real contact, no real interaction, just show behaviour and out you go.

I'm not saying they should tolerate hours of bad behaviour, but three little boys, all pretty good for a few hours, suddenly start a bicker whilst getting in the car is too much for them to deal with?

I guess I see family differently. I don't like it if my children play up in front of family members, but I do see it as normal, especially in very little ones (2 & 4). What if the two-year old has a tantrum? Or winges? Or is a normal 2 year old?

I guess the thing is the OP can't relax around her PIL, nor can her husband and nor now can the children. I would hate for my children/grandchilden in the future to be dreading coming over or limiting their time at my house for fear we might get upset. This isn't family to me (but I accept lots of people do think a 2 hour duty visit is preferable to seeing the real side of their grand-children!)

[MrsCampbellBlack]

Thank goodness I have a lovely fil who when the children bicker (as all small children do) kindly diffuses the situation.

And the OP has said her children were good for the majority of the day and yet as is typical on here people are saying 'oh they'd clearly misbehaved all day' or you know perhaps the OP is telling the truth and her FIL is a bully.

OP - I'd limit visits but wouldn't bother with an email - I doubt it would solve anything sadly.

[Jakadaal]

I have had a similar experience with my SFIL. MIL is fab but SFIL is very intolerant of children. I don't like confrontation but saw red, read him the riot act about the fact that I was the parent not him and that if he had a problem with my child's behaviour that he should bring it to my attention. I was told I was being ridiculous (this was all over 4 excited children jumping on a bed and being encourage to do so by MIL but my DS was the only one chastised). My response - I told him how I felt and said that I would never visit the house again and I haven't. MIL and I maintain a wonderful relationship and SFIL are civil and put up with each other but he has never repeated this behaviour again.

YADNU - stand up to the bully (its what you would tell your children)

[Hissy]

Bugger the consequences of inflaming the situation, FIL is NOT the one to manhandle small children. If he thought someone should do/say something his ONLY responsibility is to say to the parent present, 'Are you going to stop this?'

I wouldn't email, I'd make a CALL tbh, he needs to be told. An email is too passive.

Yes our DC play up, yes sometimes we are hotter on it than at other times, but NEVER do we allow someone to ride roughshod over OUR DC, or manhandle them. We can remove our children, we can discipline them, but for FIL to step in here was OTT and out of order.

The FIL has form, he has over stepped the mark. He needs physically telling. Someone has to stand up to him and on behalf of children that sounded as if they had been pretty good considering.

[Hissy]

My Stepfather is often out of line and I tell him. He is a nasty little man with ishoos IMVHO, but he won't be allowed to swear at my child, he won't shout the odds at me either. He tries, frequently. He gest put damned straight.

My mother gets it both barrels from me too when he does, cos it's her flaming lapdog, SHE needs to teach it to play nice.

I hate bullies, they are the lowest and most insignificant beings on earth.

[flippinada]

Hissy I agree, inflaming was a bad choice of words.

What I meant was, FIL will use the email as an opportunity to create a big drama or alternatively ignore it and carry on as he always has done.

I don't mean OP should say nothing and ignore it.

I completely agree that bullying behaviour should not be tolerated.

[flippinada]

I strongly suspect the FIL will not take a telling off from the OP seriously.

That doesn't mean he shouldn't be pulled up on his behaviour.

[mousemole]

Freddie , really not sure what part of my post was deliberately inflammatory ? As for not liking the man..too damn right. I've never liked him. He's a big bully who bullies his wife and children and doesn't like me because I stand up to him and always have.
MIL, who is sweet but bullied was in another room so not around. I'm fond of her and she has a big heart.
Interestingly FIL has just been through a lengthy tribunal where a former colleague at a charity he volunteers at accused him of bullying and intimidation. I can well believe it.
As for the 'dragging', I really mean ''dragging'. I don't mean a firm grab and march along that I'm sure we have all done. His face was puce with rage and he dragged them forcefully . 2 year old was terrified.
I can't make up my mind about the email. I want him to know how wrong we found his actions, that it is up to us to parent and that manhandling the kids is not on. I'd like an apology.

[Hissy]

I agree, emailing leaves a trace, something the bastard can show to others and doctor even to make out the OP is in the wrong.

A call is between the 2 of them , can be referred to time and time again by the OP and there is no denying it took place. Any discrepancy/rewriting of history and it would always be his word against mousehole , and given a bit of support the MrMousehole could step up and back his wife.

[Hissy]

If FIL won't be told off, then he can stay home and MIL can come to visit.

He wants to behave like a child he can do.

But he won't be able to bully our OP and her family anymore.

Shame there are no tribunals for families...