to think it's not terribly helpful to keep referring to parents who haven't MMR'd as "whack jobs"...

[MsGillis]

..or morons, or unfit parents, or up there with people who drink and drive?

I appreciate that people have very strong feelings around the subject, but I think that we need to understand that there are a significant number of parents who didn't/haven't vaccinated, not because they are crystal waving nutjobs, but because they are actually scared shitless and paralysed into indecision?

Surely there are ways and means to communicate information, and arrogantly shouting about how one person is right and anyone who disagrees is all kinds of nobhead is not going to be conducive in opening up reasonable dialogue?

'so do you think the HPA just made the figures up, which showed that the school girl vaccination program wasn't as effective? Why would they?'

Could you link to this study please? Surely people who have the vaccine at puberty will have longer immunity time than those vaccinated as toddlers 10 years earlier?

It seems to me that since the MMR is cheaper then that will be the main reason for change in policy.

The problem (as always) with this discussion is that the those in the "accept MMR or you are a mental scumbag who would burn babies given half a chance" contingent (I accept I exaggerate slightly) will at no stage confront - or even acknowledge - the ethical problem inherent in giving babies a vaccination which is at that stage, or only marginal (if any) benefit to them in the interests of persons wholy unconnected with them and to whom they cannot possibly be said to owe any positive moral duties.
Until they do this, they are forced to revert to arguments of the "of course I fell one must do this because I care about society" nature. Which is merely advertising what a wonderful person you believe yourself to be. Who cares?

Post transplant.

lottieandmia

www.hpa.org.uk/web/HPAweb&HPAwebStandard/HPAweb_C/1221202948790

I've linked to this earlier.

sense info on Congenital Rubella syndrome
There were just 6 cases of Rubella in th un in 2011 and 65 in 2012

cardi I don't think raspberry is trying to upset you/anyone. She is just highlighting why some people still feel nervous (even though they know they shouldn't). What she has to say is relevant otherwise there wouldn't be any fuss about this at all.

Yes the fears about mmr are not justified but some people are still frightened (IMO they need reassuring).

ilove my son is ASD, he's 4, he's never said "I love you mummy" and I've no idea if that will ever happen. Yes, of course I'd still get him vaccinated, if given another chance. I can see the whole picture; a grandfather who is obsessed with counting spoons in the house, his entire paternal line is full of scientists and mathematicians.

The problem with the MMR and how people perceive the before-and-after change is that it's given right at a time when children are achieving different developmental changes, such as talking (or not, in DS's case). They're making that change from babyhood to toddlerhood. It's when we notice that hey, they're responding to things differently from the other toddlers.

FairPhylis's posts are spot on.

Of course people are nervous! It's natural and normal to be nervous when somebody is doing something to your baby that might upset it, and might make it feel a bit crap. And of course at the back of your mind there's the worry about side effects. The real, recorded,proved side effects. It's just a shame that people have to worry about side effects that don't happen as well as ones that do.

'it's given right at a time when children are achieving different developmental changes, such as talking (or not, in DS's case). They're making that change from babyhood to toddlerhood. It's when we notice that hey, they're responding to things differently from the other toddlers. '

But this is also a time when a developing brain could be knocked off course so to speak, which is why some parents report that their child changes after a vaccination or the onset of a virus.

There is peer reviewed evidence which shows that the developing brain is predisposed to environmental changes which could affect development.

You know, I'd love to be able to believe that it's impossible for a child to regress as a result of a vaccination. I can't tell you how much easier my life would be if that were the case.

lottie you know every

lottie you know every one is going to ask for a link to that peer reviewed journal don't you? If you could link to it that would be great.

(Sorry about the other post, iPhone fail).

Autism is not one thing green. Simplex autism (no autism or broader autism phenotype in the family) is known to be inherited very differently than multiplex cases (eg with grandfathers that collect spoons). My son's severe autism was diagnosed without question as regressive by his then paediatrician & his regression was accompanied by physical issues as well (the development of gut problems in his case). I find the work coming out of UC Davis (looking at immune dysfunction & autism) very relevant to him & am inclined to listen to their inmunogist who recommends not giving multiple vaccinations if you suspect a child to be in the risk group.

I assume if you've consulted with an immunologist and they're advised you in their professional capacity about your son's specific condition, then you are correct to take their advice, saintly.

I stand by what I said. Someone asked a broad "what would you do" question earlier in the thread, and I answered it. I think a lot of people are choosing not to immunise, and they are not consulting professionals in the way you have done.

Rasberry if you google mind autism UC Davis - you'll get the MIND group. They're doing a lot of work on both the immune system & autism & also environmental factors triggering autism. Other groups are doing similar work but MIND are really good at communicating with the public. I quoted earlier their immunologist recommending spacing vaccinations (& this is her opinion based on work so far rather than anything more - although I think her opinion is worth listening to).

For gut problems Derrick MacFabe is worth checking out. He's another one who is very good at communicating with the public. He's done a lot of work on gut bacteria & autism.

Oh and to follow this sort of work Paul Whiteley's Questionning Answers blog is very very good.

I haven't spoken directly to the immunologist - she was talking generally about autism. Although obviously I have spoken to his paeds and neurologist & GP.

My point really is that autism is multiple conditions so you can't assume that other people's experiences are the same. In ds1's case he physically lost the ability to make a wide range of speech sounds (not just language) as part of his regression & never regained those - social aspects aside it's a physical change showing brain damage (presumably - I can't think why else he would lose the ability to move his mouth in a certain way). But his regression is very different from some friends kids who regressed following extended seizures for example.

saintly obviously you would take the advice and avoid any further vaccination. I did google UC Davis MIND and then I typed mmr into their search engine. This was what I found, it's an from a talk on Autism and Immunizations by dr Fombonne

Concerns have been raised about the role of immunization as a risk factor for autism. The measles-mumpsrubella vaccine (MMR) has been postulated to induce a new form of regressive autism with enterocolitis. Thimerosal, a mercury-based compound used to stabilize vaccines, has also been hypothesized to induce autism in infants and toddlers.

The MMR and thimerosal hypotheses have been evaluated with cohort, case-control and ecological studies that will be summarized. The evidence accumulated in recent years currently favors the rejection of both hypotheses. Eric Fombonne, M.D. M.I.N.D. Institute Distinguished Lecturer Series: December 14, 2005

Thimerosal isn't used in the MMR vaccine, just fyi. It might still be used in flu vaccines.

saintly I realise autism isn't just one condition, I appreciate the information as obviously I wouldn't have done any research on my own regarding my son's condition.

" I think a lot of people are choosing not to immunise, and they are not consulting professionals in the way you have done."
The professionals are not available to consult. The best that most people can hope for is access to a GP who will parrott DoH guidelines. When you quiz them further, the blank looks speak volumes. They generally know less than the average concerned parent who has spent a couple of hours on the internet.
People would be more inclined to listen to the medical profession on this, as on other issues, if the professionals available were of higher calibre.

green I know it isn't / has never been. I just wanted to quite verbatim.

karlos you can't possibly expect a GP to have expert knowledge in immunology, gastroenterology, respiratory medicine, gynocology, cardiology, endocrinology etc

That's why the nhs develops protocols. The evidence is reviewed by experts and protocols are written that medical professionals follow. These protocols are obviously set up for the general population.
If a patient has a particular risk / condition they go and see an expert and take appropriate advice pertaining to their individual circumstances.

Right I'm done time for bed.