to think it's not terribly helpful to keep referring to parents who haven't MMR'd as "whack jobs"...

[MsGillis]

..or morons, or unfit parents, or up there with people who drink and drive?

I appreciate that people have very strong feelings around the subject, but I think that we need to understand that there are a significant number of parents who didn't/haven't vaccinated, not because they are crystal waving nutjobs, but because they are actually scared shitless and paralysed into indecision?

Surely there are ways and means to communicate information, and arrogantly shouting about how one person is right and anyone who disagrees is all kinds of nobhead is not going to be conducive in opening up reasonable dialogue?

WellJustCallHimDave:

"Call me what you will. I'll ignore you. Make vaccination a condition of obtaining a school place. I'll home school. Force me or my children to have any vaccination and I'll take your goddamn head off."

WellJustCallHimDave:

"I'm not anti vaccination..."

What would be an anti vaccination point of view then?

I am aware that immunity can wane over time. However, I am also aware of people with natural immunity to things who have got them again.

There are two ways of getting immunity. Both have a very small element of risk. The risk of the "natural" way is actually higher than the "artificial" way. (This is well documented).

"you don't seem to understand that there is no evidence that the mmr vaccine causes autism."

Excuse me? I haven't said "MMR causes autism". It obviously doesn't, since there are millions of kids who have had MMR and who don't have autism.

There are, however, some children who have regressed and now have permanent severe disabilities, not only after MMR but other vaccines, as well. These have been compensated for this vaccine damage, meaning there is no doubt that their problems were caused by the vaccine.

There is a risk of side effects with any vaccine, just like with any drug. If a vaccine isn't absolutely necessary, there is no need to take that small risk. I don't know why you think saying this is unreasonable.

WearsMinkAllDay, I'm pro choice.

"LOL, you are way over your head, aren't you? smile Actually, immunity through infection is better, since it doesn't wane and is lifelong. "

Yep, lifelong. Especially for those whose life has been cut shot by the disease.

"The wider population needs to be immune to Rubella to protect the unborn children of those women for who the vaccine doesn't work"

The vast majority of women will be immune to rubella we stop vaccinating babies against it. The tiny fraction you are not will be picked up when tested for immunity as teenagers.

Test them again a few years later and vaccinate the ones for whom the vaccine hasn't worked. Very easy.

Let me know if it still isn't clear. I can do this all night

"I'm not calling for an advertising campaign putting it onto big fat posters, frequent jingles and TV adverts calling them antisocial morons, it's just my opinion, and I doubt they give a toss what little old widowwadman or anyone else thinks."
Well, you got the last bit right ...

Sorry, I pressed send too soon. An anti-vaccination point of view would be one where I tried to insist that your child wasn't vaccinated, either by argument or merely by being abusive.

Whose life is cut short by rubella, Widow? Please share.

Have you ever seen a case of rubella? Do you have any idea how mild and short-lived it is?

and by the way cote, it's pearls before swine .... but I salute your stamina

lottieandmia - and if one of your daughters would turn out to be a non-responder and she ended up losing a child or giving birth to a severely disabled one, that's just tough luck, eh?

Cotedazur, how about the lives lost through CRS? Or do they not count, because they haven't been born yet?

seeker - re "I am also aware of people with natural immunity to things who have got them again"

That by definition means that they never had natural immunity in the first place.

I had measles twice. That is because I was a baby the first time and my immune response didn't take. I had the natural immunity after the second time I had measles and now can't have it again.

"The vast majority of women will be immune to rubella we stop vaccinating babies against it. The tiny fraction you are not will be picked up when tested for immunity as teenagers."

So how do you explain that cases of congenital rubella syndrome have dropped since the introduction of vaccinations? If the natural immunity for women would be so widespread as you claim, then it would not have made a difference, surely?

WidowWadman - so you are now saying vaccines don't work?

I have a severely disabled child so please don't infer that I have no idea what that actually means!

"how about the lives lost through CRS?"

Why do you feel that fetuses will die if the vast majority of the adult population have natural immunity to rubella because they have had it as children, and the few women who aren't are caught & vaccinated in their teens?

If you are so paranoid about vaccine immunity, maybe think again about your position in this debate.

So the Taliban are the only anti-vaccinators? That's an imaginative redefinition.

Raspberry that is a really stupid strike out. MMR is not autism inducing. This is a fact.
We have discussed at length the people who can't have vaccinations for genuine medical reasons - how do they fit in to this rubella vac only for child bearing women scenario?

" I had the natural immunity after the second time I had measles and now can't have it again."

How do you know?

"Not only do I have to feel guilty about potentially injecting autism inducing completely safe wriggly microbes into my baby, I have to feel guilty about not having done it yet because I might be killing and/or disabling everyone else's yet to be born children."

You are joking, I presume?

cotedazur if natural immunity is so effective, why did immunisation have such an impact on the number of CRS cases?

I find it very difficult to argue with cote as she doesn't care about the health of pregnant women who aren't her or her daughter. Whereas I do.

It isn't fair to say every single woman should take responsibility for her own rubella immunity when there are a limited number of women who are not able to have the vaccine.

Widow - Share your figures so we can see what you are talking about.

Logically, you should be assuming that most children naturally having the disease plus vaccination would result in more immune adults than only vaccination.

lottieandmia I have never said that vaccines don't work.