to think it's not terribly helpful to keep referring to parents who haven't MMR'd as "whack jobs"...

[MsGillis]

..or morons, or unfit parents, or up there with people who drink and drive?

I appreciate that people have very strong feelings around the subject, but I think that we need to understand that there are a significant number of parents who didn't/haven't vaccinated, not because they are crystal waving nutjobs, but because they are actually scared shitless and paralysed into indecision?

Surely there are ways and means to communicate information, and arrogantly shouting about how one person is right and anyone who disagrees is all kinds of nobhead is not going to be conducive in opening up reasonable dialogue?

The survival of the fittest comment was not very nice. Same goes for when people infer that some collateral damage to some children from vaccinations is ok. People who say these sorts of things fail to see people as individuals with real lives.

She doesn't have a dilemma. There is NO credible evidence linking MMR with autism. When I was about to vaccinate my daughter I asked my doctor friends what they had done. They had ALL vaccinated their children. So I did.

'She doesn't have a dilemma.'

Well, that all depends what genetic make up her children have doesn't it and whether they have the same predisposition her nephew had.

Leo Blair had the MMR

www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2001/dec/23/uk.research

lavolcan well Japan switching from mmr to single jabs and seeing no fall in autism rates (I think they continued to rise) is pretty solid real data.

lottie I will be the first to admit that I don't know a lot about autism but doesn't it take a long time to get a diagnosis. So parents first suspect there is something wrong around one year old and then after many investigations the diagnosis is made around 2.

Well I stand corrected Chunderella if Cherie was being truthful!

Lottie what are you talking about? There is NO credible evidence showing link between MMR and autism. Her nephew's 'genetic makeup' is irrelevant.

She has no dilemma.

Did your doctor friends have children with autism spero? How does telling her that there is No credible evidence convince her? What if her nephew had regressed into autism after getting measles? Would you say get the jab, that's why we don't want measles to circulate? Or would you say, it's just a coincidence?

Vaccine refusers ? those who could, but don?t, have their children vaccinated ? are either knavish or foolish.

IME the great majority of vaccine refusers are knavish: they know what they?re doing is hiding behind herd immunity while proudly boasting of their individuality and deeper knowledge. But, just like many of the people queuing in Wales now, when disease comes knocking they?re down the jab clinic like shit off a shovel. It?s all posturing and ?look at me ? I?m different!? rubbish. Being anti-vaccination makes them feel important and special.

Pathetic reasons for not vaccinating are generally inflated to sound like genuine ones. But it?s always striking that those whose children have, or who themselves have, LEGITIMATE reasons for not vaccinating and for most fearing infectious disease ? those who?ve had chemo, for example ? are openly grateful to those who do vaccinate and would accept vaccinations straight away if they could.

A few refusers are foolish and genuinely don?t know how to make choices of any sort.

But all anti-vaccinators are dangerous when they start publicly to spread lies and myths, and to smear vaccination with vague suggestions of harm and cover up.

MMR does not cause autism, neither in general nor in a susceptible few. How do we know? Because many studies show it.

Devastating adverse reactions to modern vaccines are incredibly, almost vanishingly rare. How do we know? Because the carefully monitored and analysed data show it.

If you argue otherwise you are either knavish or foolish.

I suppose it depends WhenShe, not least on where you live I suppose and how good services are. But I think when a child has regressed spectacularly as described by Pag, who just said her son had the MMR at 18 months then it's quite rude to say the parents are just looking for a reason or it was a coincidence.

There is currently another thread where a child was hospitalised after his booster and the OP was asking where to report the reaction. She says she took him to A and E where they said after investigation it must have been the booster that caused it.

If telling someone there is no credible evidence doesn't convince her, then nothing will. Coincidence isn't cause. Individual tragedies do not entitle people to behave like selfish fools when they chose to live in mainstream society with all its benefits and yet expose others to the consequences of their very poor choices.

As laQueen said much earlier, if you think your half an hour on google has more relevance and substance than many years of medical training, your credulous nature runs disturbingly deep.

That is a general 'you' by the way.

pag I am really sorry about your ds2. The thing is there really isn't any evidence that mmr causes autism. I know parent experience is important but the appearance of a link isn't the same as an actual link.

I find it hard to accept there is a link between mmr and autism because when it was dropped in Japan the was no drop in autism rates.

'IME the great majority of vaccine refusers are knavish: they know what they?re doing is hiding behind herd immunity while proudly boasting of their individuality and deeper knowledge. But, just like many of the people queuing in Wales now, when disease comes knocking they?re down the jab clinic like shit off a shovel. It?s all posturing and ?look at me ? I?m different!? rubbish. Being anti-vaccination makes them feel important and special.'

Do you personally know anyone like this? Because I don't...

'If you argue otherwise you are either knavish or foolish.'

Ok, WearsMink - you must be right because you say so

Life is not black and white. If there was more help to determine the grey areas, maybe we wouldn't have the outbreak that is going on now.

lottie I'm not saying vaccination doesn't cause any reactions every. There are reactions most commonly a bruise or mild fever and very very occasionally (1 in 100,000) a severe allergic reaction. But there isn't any evidence that it causes autism.

I don't give a shit about being superior or posturing. I would just like to be alive for the next five years as my daughter is only 8.

But WhenShe - as we've said elsewhere autism is not one condition - it's many conditions which could all have different causes. One person with autism can present very differently to another and have totally different needs.

I agree, Chunderella