To agree with David Cameron

[McNewPants2013]

m.bbc.co.uk/news/health-22209634

I think it is a good way to ensure that the patients get good quality nurses.

A year as a HCP before commencing a degree in nursing sound a brilliant policy.

And of course the year would be a paid year! It's not free labour. It's simply requiring a workforce to go into a career with their eyes open. Many people working as TAs realised close up what teaching is really like and decide not to train as teachers after all, and that's good.

Paid for by who?

I WOULD MAYBE agree if they didn't ignore the actual recommendations about minimum staffing levels

You can be the most caring nurse in the world but if you have to deal with 3x the number of patients because there is no maximum quota then I think it's all Tory Bullshit smoke and mirrors

"What training do you get to be a MP, and spout ...."

Classic DawnDonna

Its a knee jerk reaction - agree with the RCN its stupid.
All of those applying for Nurse Training/Midwifery have always had to show at interview /selection that they have previous experience and show aptitude. So they are often found working as HCA/Carers already as are those hoping to go into Medicine.

Will they be paid? The current salary for a level 2 HCA is £14,295 -£17,425 .Whats the betting that they will be "given the opportunity" ie not paid or paid less .
What about the training? HCA undergo training before they can start ,who is going to provide this .
We are the only country without a LEGAL minimum Nurse/Patient ratio. Why is this recommendation of the Francis Report not being addressed?
This will be a cheap way of Dave n co "increasing" staff on the wards without any thought to what is actually needed.
Patients deserve more.

Adding an extra year's training doesn't fix the problem of nurses being overstretched though does it?!

What is the point of having that extra year, if patient/nurse ratios are still not adequate, because hospitals (for whatever reason) are unable to recruit the required number of nurses?

You could add three years to the start of the training, but if at the other end, the nurses are going to be overstretched and overrun with paperwork/admin, those extra years will make NO difference.

It isn't a training issue - the current qualification is more than adequate - it's the fact that sadly nurses are sometimes too overstretched to give every patient the due care and attention they deserve.

The hospital that one of my nurse cousins works in, is so short of nurses at the moment, that my cousin has been working far and above the hours she should be doing. After I saw the report on nursing numbers/working hours on the news the other day, I spoke to her and she admitted, that just a couple of weeks ago she worked a shift after just TWO HOURS sleep. She said it has got to the point where her heart sinks when she sees it's the hospital calling on her mobile.

So again, I repeat what I said before, the extra training will make no difference without changes the other end. In fact, I go as far as to say, making changes the other end is FAR more important.

My DH is a nurse, and my daughter a 1st year Student. DD's first placement was spent following the HCA's about. All emphasis on CARE for the patient.But as others have said, if there is shortage of staff, how can nurses NURSE?

What about having to have work experience before being taken on a nursing degree course? So it can be as HCA for a year or an equivalent role....
I can see why this could be seen as necessary ...
I read somewhere recently (can't remember where) about a relative asking for help for a vomiting patient and the nurse said 'I have a degree, I don't do vomit' I'm sure (in fact I know) this isn't true about most nurses - just the bad examples get a lot of attention...
I actually think the whole thing is a result of professions like nursing/teaching/police being paid too much - got into a position that the state can't afford it...so we end up with HCAs, teaching assistants and community officers to do a lot of 'their' work but at much cheaper rate...and some (emphasis here -probably young recently qualified) - then feel they are superior to their 'helpers'...it would demeaning to do their work...
And before I get flamed for that comment about being overpaid ...a lot of the reason for the increased salaries is inflated house prices...(thanks Gordon Brown!) ... with house prices doubling/tripling ...think a £50k house would cost you £3.5k a year (even with current low interest rates) - that house (now £150k) will cost you £10.5k a year more ...you could earn £7k less and still be as well off...

well personally I think it is a great idea, I think it is the route most nurses used to take anyway, certainly most of the nurses I work with started as HCA's. I am a HCA and I love my job, however I feel that it is a role that is looked down upon as being for the unqualifed and uneducated. I have a degree, I am hoping to be a midwife one day butt I have applied twicce and can not get on the course, 1500 applicants for 48 places, how is this going to mean that there are not enpoough applicants. I am certainly not thick, I actually enjoy patient care and feel that it is an essential part of nursing, the thought that it is below nurses in astounding. (although I know not everyones opinion I have certainly heard it)

What about having to have work experience before being taken on a nursing degree course?

I'm yet to meet anyone who has trained in the last few years who didn't have relevant work experience! It is astoundingly competitive to get onto an NHS-funded course (midwifery, nursing, OT, ODP etc) and universities can already afford to be very picky about who they choose.

Making a year's experience as an HCA compulsory will do nothing to change the qualities of applicants and has lots of reasons for being a very bad, poorly thought out gimmick.

I actually think the whole thing is a result of professions like nursing/teaching/police being paid too much

Newly qualified nurses (or equivalent) start on 21K. How is that too much??! These are graduates who are expected to have graduate-level skills. There aren't many jobs in the private sector which are graduate-entry only and which pay so little.

I did my nurse training 2004-2007.

A lot of people seem to assume that student nurses spend their entire time in a university lecture hall without ever setting eyes on a patient. In fact the course is precisely 50% theory/50% practice. You cannot qualify unless you have done the required practice hours and there are specific objectives that need to be achieved on each placement.

My first year placements WERE pretty much working as a HCA. I learnt a hell of a lot from the HCAs. However, if working as an HCA for a year was compulsory, it would have put me off applying to study nursing.

21k for a starting salary for nurses . 19k is now the starting salary for police officers who now , in order to be able to apply , either have to PAY to do a college course in policing studies , or work for a year UNPAID as a special , so they can get a years policing for free .

Looks like one idea fits all professions for this one trick goverment , doesn't it ?

I'm just waiting for the next profession be asked to do the job for a year for sod all . MP's perhaps . After all we're all in it together .

I think the problem is that a very few nurses have the wrong attitude for the job and need to be weeded out.

An elderly relative of mine died a few months ago. During his final illness most of the nurses were fantastic. Unfortunately, there were several who really didn't want to do the basic care of feeding, changing, turning and washing him. My family and I had to be at the bedside at all times day and night because we didn't know if there would be proper care or not as it depended who was on the ward.

Most nurses are extremely caring and professional individuals. They do a very worthwhile and difficult job under stressful conditions. It would be better to move the 'nurse ratchet' types into a job where they can do less damage to their patients than make all nurses do hcp training.

*hca training

than make all nurses do hca training.

But the irony is that there is no standard HCA training! Some hospitals have very good in-house training schemes, others do not. A HCA can be on the wards looking after patients on their first day in the job with no training at all. One of the recommendations of the Francis report was that HCAs should be properly trained and regulated but Jeremy Hunt has decided to ignore this and make student nurses work as untrained HCAs for a year. How will that help?!

I'm sorry - I don't mean to be rude - but I'm laughing my arse off at the comment about nurses, teachers and police officers being paid too much.

They are three of the most important jobs in our society, and quite frankly, to pay them any lower would be a joke.

It's bankers and their ilk who don't deserve their fucking sky high salaries.

Leave the nurses, teachers and police officers alone!

Quite. I was going to reply fuck off to that post but thought it would just be deleted

Arf @ nurses being paid "too much".

Come and try the job and THEN tell me nurses are paid too much. What a joke!

Terrible idea, why no mention of poor NHS management and over worked nursing staff, no lets blame it all on nurse training, ridiculous.

I actually don't need to respond, aghast, to ..."actually think the whole thing is a result of professions like nursing/teaching/police being paid too much" do I? - others have done it eloquently, including the 'f' word.

83 it isn't a question of anyone feeling 'superior', it's to do with entry levels, responsibilities, legal positions etc. I am 'superior' to my band 4 Assistant Practitioner in that, as a band 6, if, whilst working with her, I fail to supervise her to the extent she screws up, I am liable. Call that 'superiority' if you like. I call it my legal position, and my responsibility to her.

And 83, shared ownership came in because the government of the day suddenly realised that HCPs/teachers/policemen etc were relatively so badly paid, many areas would be left without HCPs/teachers/police officers unless they acted to help these people onto the housing ladder, such was their low level of remuneration.

How about paying HCAs etc more to close that gap, rather than HCP less?

House price inflation wasn't a result of those nasty nurses (are you a DM reader, perchance??! Or maybe the Torygraph?) you know.

But one reason we have such rampant, run-away house prices is because we refuse, via our government, 'very relaxed' or not, to tax the hyper rich and/or multinational companies, terrified that they may not subsidise whoever's in power if we make them pay their way- they may leave ! (to wreak the corrupting force that absolute wealth brings with it on someone else who also cannot see it as being anything other than a blessing...)- but, in fact, they were and are the top of that bubble when it comes to house prices- not those nasty nurses, buying up 3rd homes in Mayfair and charging their mortgages, effectively, back to taxation. Grr!

Why not make pre-medical students do a year as an HCA as well?

That might be a less ridiculous suggestion if medical students received anywhere near the level of support and incentives to train that nurses do. Just to remind anyone that doesn't know, this is what is available for nurses...

All students on university courses in nursing leading to registration with the Nursing and Midwifery Council are eligible for financial help from the NHS while studying.

All eligible students will usually:

<span class="italic">have their tuition fees paid in full</span>
<span class="italic">receive a £1,000 grant each year</span>
<span class="italic">be eligible to apply for an additional means-tested bursary of up to £4,395 per year. Students in London will qualify for more (up to £5,460)</span>

While if you train to be a doctor you get, er...fuck-all. It's tuition fees all the way until final year when the NHS deigns to give a fees bursary. No grants or help with living expenses. Future doctors are already £45k-£56K worse off than nurses just in terms of fees.

Nurses don't do this sort of work anymore.I think it is a good idea so that they know what HCA'S do.It is also a way of getting staff in to feed people...It can take an hour to feed one person...we need people to do that.
Most wards have 2 or 3 nurses who run the shifts/do the medical stuff etc.

Oh, and before anyone points out about doctors' high pay...

In the most junior hospital trainee post (Foundation Year 1) the basic starting salary is £22,412

That's very little more than a newly qualified nurse.

This isn't about doctors v nurses though. Both doctors and nurses do an amazing job in a difficult system. Both are relatively undervalued, though at least the government is prepared to help future nurses financially through their training.

Comments like this are really unhelpful:

Most nurses I've met have been lovely, and competent, the doctors have been offensive, high handed, and unbelievably arrogant.

You may as well say: 'most nurses I've met have had lovely hair and kind eyes, the doctors have been ugly, hairy and smelly' because it's equally meaningless.